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Post by mrtea on Jul 12, 2021 18:08:43 GMT -7
Ottawa hires Pierre McGuire today and somehow the Oilers are still the laughing stock of the NHL. Regardless of who the GM is, not much changes in Oil Country. I was looking forward to an off-season with money to spend, but not anymore. It’s almost all gone now anyway! Mark Spector brought up a very good point for everyone that is upset over the cap hit. If they did not get Keith to play the 2nd pairing D, they would have had to acquire a 2nd pairing D via free agency. How much would we have paid a free agent 2nd pairing D, and how much term would they want? Probably more cap and more term, think about that when you complain about no money to spend anymore.
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Post by igibb on Jul 12, 2021 18:09:04 GMT -7
Too many fans still act like this team is a season or two away from competing for the cup. We are not. I would put the Krakens chances of winning in that time frame at better than ours right now and they have zero players. We have no goaltending, we have a bunch of rookie to barely past sophomore defencemen with no one to mentor them, our number one defenceman has been anointed that after half a seasons worth of games against 6 teams, we have a bottom six that I bet is going to be put to shame by a brand new expansion team, we have no one that knows how to win, we have no one that gets any respect from the officials in this league and we have won ONE "playoff" game in the last two seasons against two teams that went on to win a grand total of ONE game between them after beating us. I would much rather pay Keith for 2 seasons of his experience and leadership than cough up that kind of cap for 4-5 yrs to a guy like Hyman who has won exactly nothing.
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Post by mrtea on Jul 12, 2021 18:17:51 GMT -7
Chicago has yet to acquire Seth Jones. They will have to pay a pretty hefty price to get him. That sematic of $5.4M is only for one season. Then they have to resign him, it won't be for $5.4m and we both know it. So you can play this anyway you want to. The fact remains $5.5 is not 1st line wages and me thinks thou dost protest too much. At the moment you would prefer Seth Jones, but we have Nurse and can you honestly say you know how good Nurse is going to be? We cannot try to acquire Jones, it is not realistic in a cap league to have two #1 D's, so we stay with Nurse and let Chicago do their own thing. It’s all irrelevant T, just like some trying to justify this trade by saying it’s ok because we don’t have barrie’s cap hit and Russell only costs 1.2 now? These things have nothing to do with this trade. The simple facts are: Kh traded for a 38 yr old washed up D man with a $5.5m cap hit who has a nmc clause which means he must be protected meaning another valuable asset has to be unprotected . For this “privalage” we give chi a young nhl Dman who was touted to be top 4 by most only a year ago and although his play slipped a fair bit this year, we have seen first hand (nurse), it can take 400+ games for a dman to hit his stride. Laughably, we also gave up a third maybe even a 2nd, should we make the cup final “in spite of” Keith’s albatross contract. When rumours of this trade 1st appeared, I said unless they give us a pick and eat half his salary, kh should hang up the phone. No sorry, but no amount of koolaid will change my opinion Check my post above post for most of my answer. Barrie's and Russell's cap hits is something I did not bring up or agree with. I agree with you that they have nothing to do with the Keith acquisition. Regarding Caleb Jones, who said Jones would be a 2nd pairing D some day? I know I never heard that! I used to think he would make an NHL D, but after last season I gave up that idea. Jones was nothing more than a trade asset, which is how he was used. If you think losing Jones is a big deal, more power to you, but I don't agree with that at all.
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Post by discostew on Jul 12, 2021 18:27:28 GMT -7
Yup Jones played 33 games on our team last year. He was a 4th round pick from 6 years ago. He had almost no value.
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Post by Bronco73 on Jul 12, 2021 18:32:26 GMT -7
It’s all irrelevant T, just like some trying to justify this trade by saying it’s ok because we don’t have barrie’s cap hit and Russell only costs 1.2 now? These things have nothing to do with this trade. That would be me, and I wasn't trying to justify anything, I was stating fact that we lost a D man and had to acquire one, and that the cap hits of those going out were similar to that coming in. The point is Barrie is leaving, and no amount of falling to our knees and begging him to stay will convince him. We needed to replace him, and we needed somebody to help guide our VERY young D core. Keith fits that bill.The simple facts are: Kh traded for a 38 yr old washed up D man with a $5.5m cap hit who has a nmc clause which means he must be protected meaning another valuable asset has to be unprotected . Yet he still led Chicago in ice time last season. The NMC COULD hurt but realistically, he's here for two years. The only way this NMC hurts is that we have to protect him from Seattle. Trust me the team was going to protect him anyway. IMO the NMC is a nothing burger. For this “privalage” we give chi a young nhl Dman who was touted to be top 4 by most only a year ago and although his play slipped a fair bit this year, He has never been touted that high, and will never make it that high. we have seen first hand (nurse), it can take 400+ games for a dman to hit his stride. Laughably, we also gave up a third maybe even a 2nd, It will be a third, nobody in their right mind believes it will be a second with those conditions.
should we make the cup final “in spite of” Keith’s albatross contract. When rumours of this trade 1st appeared, I said unless they give us a pick and eat half his salary, kh should hang up the phone. No sorry, but no amount of koolaid will change my opinion Understood. but this is just two years of contract, for somebody who COULD end up being long term with this organization in roles other than playing on the ice.
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Post by drtaf on Jul 12, 2021 18:41:13 GMT -7
I’m not saying Jones will amount to anything but he was once a very promising d-prospect and may or may not have yet reached his potential way too early to say tbh. He was likely to be left unprotected for the kraken and if they had taken him, that would have been of considerable value to us. As far as I’m concerned that alone makes him way more valuable than Keith who has to be protectedbut add the cap hit Keith brings and I don’t see how this adds up in anyway to somehow be in our favour?? The 3rd round pick is insult to injury and the condition of 2nd if we make the final is Bowman’s idea of a sick joke he can tell to other Gms at the gm convention while kh plays old maid and the other gms play poker
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Post by drtaf on Jul 12, 2021 18:51:20 GMT -7
It’s all irrelevant T, just like some trying to justify this trade by saying it’s ok because we don’t have barrie’s cap hit and Russell only costs 1.2 now? These things have nothing to do with this trade. That would be me, and I wasn't trying to justify anything, I was stating fact that we lost a D man and had to acquire one, and that the cap hits of those going out were similar to that coming in. The point is Barrie is leaving, and no amount of falling to our knees and begging him to stay will convince him. We needed to replace him, and we needed somebody to help guide our VERY young D core. Keith fits that bill.The simple facts are: Kh traded for a 38 yr old washed up D man with a $5.5m cap hit who has a nmc clause which means he must be protected meaning another valuable asset has to be unprotected . Yet he still led Chicago in ice time last season. The NMC COULD hurt but realistically, he's here for two years. The only way this NMC hurts is that we have to protect him from Seattle. Trust me the team was going to protect him anyway. IMO the NMC is a nothing burger. For this “privalage” we give chi a young nhl Dman who was touted to be top 4 by most only a year ago and although his play slipped a fair bit this year, He has never been touted that high, and will never make it that high. we have seen first hand (nurse), it can take 400+ games for a dman to hit his stride. Laughably, we also gave up a third maybe even a 2nd, It will be a third, nobody in their right mind believes it will be a second with those conditions.
should we make the cup final “in spite of” Keith’s albatross contract. When rumours of this trade 1st appeared, I said unless they give us a pick and eat half his salary, kh should hang up the phone. No sorry, but no amount of koolaid will change my opinion Understood. but this is just two years of contract, for somebody who COULD end up being long term with this organization in roles other than playing on the ice. I respect your opinion Bronc, but last week you agreed with me that if kh spends the full $5.5M on Keith you’d be disappointed in allocating valuable cap on him. I’m not sure what has changed?? I’m really hoping Keith can still play steady top 4 D and I’m sure he will bring intangibles and leadership to our young d-Corp but IMO this is a massive overpayment especially when it was well known Keith only wanted to come here. Again, I’m sorry but I don’t care how much sugar Spector puts into the koolaid, this one still tastes like pisswater. I was looking forward to seeing what kh could do with some cap space, now I’m dreading how much more of a laughing stock he can make us. |
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Post by mrtea on Jul 12, 2021 18:57:12 GMT -7
I’m not saying Jones will amount to anything but he was once a very promising d-prospect and may or may not have yet reached his potential way too early to say tbh. He was likely to be left unprotected for the kraken and if they had taken him, that would have been of considerable value to us. As far as I’m concerned that alone makes him way more valuable than Keith who has to be protectedbut add the cap hit Keith brings and I don’t see how this adds up in anyway to somehow be in our favour?? The 3rd round pick is insult to injury and the condition of 2nd if we make the final is Bowman’s idea of a sick joke he can tell to other Gms at the gm convention while kh plays old maid and the other gms play poker I'm just curious because neither one of us knows for sure, but: If Bowman was pushing for Holland to give up a 2nd and Holland got Bowman to agree they get a 2nd if the Oilers make the Cup finals and Keith is playing top 4D minutes. Which one was playing old maid then?
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Post by Bronco73 on Jul 12, 2021 19:10:15 GMT -7
I respect your opinion Bronc, but last week you agreed with me that if kh spends the full $5.5M on Keith you’d be disappointed in allocating valuable cap on him. I’m not sure what has changed?? I’m really hoping Keith can still play steady top 4 D and I’m sure he will bring intangibles and leadership to our young d-Corp but IMO this is a massive overpayment especially when it was well known Keith only wanted to come here. Again, I’m sorry but I don’t care how much sugar Spector puts into the koolaid, this one still tastes like pisswater. I was looking forward to seeing what kh could do with some cap space, now I’m dreading how much more of a laughing stock he can make us. Thanks drtaf I respect the hell out of your opinions too, you have a great insight into the game. ON KH's 5.5 million, I agreed with you then and I agree now. In fact I stated that in this very thread. 5.5 is too much and I'm disappointed that KH was unable or unwilling to push Chicago to retain at least some of Keith's salary. That being said, there are intangibles with Duncan Keith that cannot be measured by his current contract, and IF those intangibles pan out which I fully expect them to, it makes his contract a good one to take on. We will have to wait and see exactly how he meshes with our current D core.
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Post by SuperDave17 on Jul 12, 2021 19:39:20 GMT -7
Btw, would we have gotten to the 2006 final had a 42 year old Oates not spent the last year of his career taking Horcoff and Stoll under his wing?
There is a part of me that's scared that Duncan will go Ferrence on us once he steps off the plane, I'll admit it.
But this trade will pay huge dividends if Bouchard, Bear, Broberg and maybe even Kesselring learn what they need to from him.
And yes, I too wish we could have wrangled some retention. But it now is what it is.
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Post by drtaf on Jul 12, 2021 20:10:31 GMT -7
I am honestly hoping for the best here and Keith can still not only contribute 2nd pair but be a significant mentor to our young D. I’m confident of the latter, hopeful of the former but when it boils down to it this screams bad asset management just like PC is now famous for and just like the looch signing, everyone said it’s the intangibles that will be the biggest diff, but in reality we got 1 decent season from him and then he was a massive albatross from then on despite I’m sure looch having the best of intentions. I’m sure Keith will want to give his all and re-pay kh faith but this is a business and kh just made a howling bad decision and now everyone is trying to sugar coat and mitigate how bad it can/will be but the fact is we’ll never know whether we could have used that $5.5M cap hit to make a real long term difference to this squad because it’s gone now and nothing can be done about it so yeah I agree with everyone here, Let’s hope it doesn’t cause too much harm like the PC fiasco, however I was hoping for so much more this season than hoping that we don’t become the leagues laughing stock again
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Post by AlwaysOil on Jul 12, 2021 20:25:37 GMT -7
Btw, would we have gotten to the 2006 final had a 42 year old Oates not spent the last year of his career taking Horcoff and Stoll under his wing? There is a part of me that's scared that Duncan will go Ferrence on us once he steps off the plane, I'll admit it. But this trade will pay huge dividends if Bouchard, Bear, Broberg and maybe even Kesselring learn what they need to from him. And yes, I too wish we could have wrangled some retention. But it now is what it is. Ference came into a group that didn’t want him and didn’t listen to him. I don’t see that with DK.
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Post by blackhawk216 on Jul 12, 2021 21:20:11 GMT -7
Chicago has yet to acquire Seth Jones. They will have to pay a pretty hefty price to get him. That sematic of $5.4M is only for one season. Then they have to resign him, it won't be for $5.4m and we both know it. So you can play this anyway you want to. The fact remains $5.5 is not 1st line wages and me thinks thou dost protest too much. At the moment you would prefer Seth Jones, but we have Nurse and can you honestly say you know how good Nurse is going to be? We cannot try to acquire Jones, it is not realistic in a cap league to have two #1 D's, so we stay with Nurse and let Chicago do their own thing. It’s all irrelevant T, just like some trying to justify this trade by saying it’s ok because we don’t have barrie’s cap hit and Russell only costs 1.2 now? These things have nothing to do with this trade. The simple facts are: Kh traded for a 38 yr old washed up D man with a $5.5m cap hit who has a nmc clause which means he must be protected meaning another valuable asset has to be unprotected . For this “privalage” we give chi a young nhl Dman who was touted to be top 4 by most only a year ago and although his play slipped a fair bit this year, we have seen first hand (nurse), it can take 400+ games for a dman to hit his stride. Laughably, we also gave up a third maybe even a 2nd, should we make the cup final “in spite of” Keith’s albatross contract. When rumours of this trade 1st appeared, I said unless they give us a pick and eat half his salary, kh should hang up the phone. No sorry, but no amount of koolaid will change my opinion Firstly Caleb Jones has never looked like a top 4 defenceman at least not for me he hasn't. Secondly we wouldn't want to reach the Stanley Cup Final would we and have to give up a 2nd rd pick, that would never do would it? Apologies for the sarcasm drtaf, but who cares if we have to give up a 2nd pick if we make the final? However I know where you are going with this, we have overpaid, no doubt about it, but we can hang onto the hope that maybe Duncan Keith will be rejuvinated by playing for a different NHL team, and come up trumps for Mr Holland and Oiler fans. Finally a question for anyone, has our leading trio of Nurse, Drai, McDavid now become a leading foursome by adding Duncan Keith? Maybe it has? I think that is what Ken Holland is banking on.
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Post by fogolin2 on Jul 12, 2021 21:36:58 GMT -7
Too many fans still act like this team is a season or two away from competing for the cup. We are not. I would put the Krakens chances of winning in that time frame at better than ours right now and they have zero players. We have no goaltending, we have a bunch of rookie to barely past sophomore defencemen with no one to mentor them, our number one defenceman has been anointed that after half a seasons worth of games against 6 teams, we have a bottom six that I bet is going to be put to shame by a brand new expansion team, we have no one that knows how to win, we have no one that gets any respect from the officials in this league and we have won ONE "playoff" game in the last two seasons against two teams that went on to win a grand total of ONE game between them after beating us. I would much rather pay Keith for 2 seasons of his experience and leadership than cough up that kind of cap for 4-5 yrs to a guy like Hyman who has won exactly nothing. Other than that ,things are going pretty well....hahahahaaaa...I'm kidding. You're not wrong, Gibby.
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Post by fogolin2 on Jul 12, 2021 21:44:19 GMT -7
Btw, would we have gotten to the 2006 final had a 42 year old Oates not spent the last year of his career taking Horcoff and Stoll under his wing? There is a part of me that's scared that Duncan will go Ferrence on us once he steps off the plane, I'll admit it. But this trade will pay huge dividends if Bouchard, Bear, Broberg and maybe even Kesselring learn what they need to from him. And yes, I too wish we could have wrangled some retention. But it now is what it is. I think the Ference thing was him being the chosen one by Eakins, and the guys hated playing for Eakins. Keith is a place holder (expensive one though) and the term is just about right for the guys that you mention. Maybe Samorukov as well.
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Post by fogolin2 on Jul 13, 2021 7:11:29 GMT -7
David Pagnotta
@thefourthperiod
·
13h
The Oilers currently have ~$11.5M in salary cap space going into the 2021-22 season. If Klefbom's done for the season, that's another $4.167M they can utilize, if needed, via LTIR.
Interesting angle, as KH said that Klefbom playing this year is very unlikely.
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Post by drtaf on Jul 13, 2021 8:01:59 GMT -7
I’m not saying Jones will amount to anything but he was once a very promising d-prospect and may or may not have yet reached his potential way too early to say tbh. He was likely to be left unprotected for the kraken and if they had taken him, that would have been of considerable value to us. As far as I’m concerned that alone makes him way more valuable than Keith who has to be protectedbut add the cap hit Keith brings and I don’t see how this adds up in anyway to somehow be in our favour?? The 3rd round pick is insult to injury and the condition of 2nd if we make the final is Bowman’s idea of a sick joke he can tell to other Gms at the gm convention while kh plays old maid and the other gms play poker I'm just curious because neither one of us knows for sure, but: If Bowman was pushing for Holland to give up a 2nd and Holland got Bowman to agree they get a 2nd if the Oilers make the Cup finals and Keith is playing top 4D minutes. Which one was playing old maid then? So Holland making the pick a conditional 2nd as opposed to an outright 2nd makes this a win?? I can honestly see that keith could become a great role model and leader for this team but for the life of me, I cannot see how anyone thinks this trade is a win for the oil. Every NHL team out there craves cap room, its the most valuable commodity. TO gave canes a 1st round pick to take 1yr of $6M Marleau salary and that was before the flat cap. Chara would be as good if not better than Keith and he went to caps for $2M as UFA. That is the max anyone pays for past cups, leadership and the so called "intangibles" (everyone else pays min wage- see Perry and a dozen other cup vets). Every team that wants another to eat a cap albatross adds the sweeteners but no KH not only does Chi a favor by taking the full cap hit, he throws in a few sweeteners as well, I hope bowman tossed in a tube of KY! I can't wait to see what KH gets for James Neal? roughly same cap hit and term left, went to SCF back to back with 2 different teams, good in locker room (as per McD) and "he" still thinks he's a top 6 forward, so he has all the intangibles plus he's 4 years younger and doesn't have an NMC. I'm expecting KH to get at least a good Forward prospect and a 2nd based on what everyone and KH's evaluation of player talent is. What's that you say MBM, we will likely have to throw in a real nice sweetener for the Kraken to eat that salary?? But Neal's Dog is homesick for his litter-mates and the the kennel he grew up in Seattle, surely the Kraken will take this into account and want a vet presence to guide them through their formative years, surely that's worth something?? Yeah right, didn't think so either! P.S. I wont hold my breath as I'll die of asphyxiation before that happens.
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Post by AlwaysOil on Jul 13, 2021 8:23:52 GMT -7
I'm just curious because neither one of us knows for sure, but: If Bowman was pushing for Holland to give up a 2nd and Holland got Bowman to agree they get a 2nd if the Oilers make the Cup finals and Keith is playing top 4D minutes. Which one was playing old maid then? So Holland making the pick a conditional 2nd as opposed to an outright 2nd makes this a win?? I can honestly see that keith could become a great role model and leader for this team but for the life of me, I cannot see how anyone thinks this trade is a win for the oil. Every NHL team out there craves cap room, its the most valuable commodity. TO gave canes a 1st round pick to take 1yr of $6M Marleau salary and that was before the flat cap. Chara would be as good if not better than Keith and he went to caps for $2M as UFA. That is the max anyone pays for past cups, leadership and the so called "intangibles" (everyone else pays min wage- see Perry and a dozen other cup vets). Every team that wants another to eat a cap albatross adds the sweeteners but no KH not only does Chi a favor by taking the full cap hit, he throws in a few sweeteners as well, I hope bowman tossed in a tube of KY! I can't wait to see what KH gets for James Neal? roughly same cap hit and term left, went to SCF back to back with 2 different teams, good in locker room (as per McD) and "he" still thinks he's a top 6 forward, so he has all the intangibles plus he's 4 years younger and doesn't have an NMC. I'm expecting KH to get at least a good Forward prospect and a 2nd based on what everyone and KH's evaluation of player talent is. What's that you say MBM, we will likely have to throw in a real nice sweetener for the Kraken to eat that salary?? But Neal's Dog is homesick for his litter-mates and the the kennel he grew up in Seattle, surely the Kraken will take this into account and want a vet presence to guide them through their formative years, surely that's worth something?? Yeah right, didn't think so either! P.S. I wont hold my breath as I'll die of asphyxiation before that happens.
 😁
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Post by igibb on Jul 13, 2021 8:26:00 GMT -7
David Pagnotta @thefourthperiod · 13h The Oilers currently have ~$11.5M in salary cap space going into the 2021-22 season. If Klefbom's done for the season, that's another $4.167M they can utilize, if needed, via LTIR. Interesting angle, as KH said that Klefbom playing this year is very unlikely. One has to think there is a buyout coming and Turris will hopefully be buried in the minors so that should be another $4 million or so as well.
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Post by neufab94 on Jul 13, 2021 8:28:23 GMT -7
I hope it turns to a 2nd round pick. That means we went to the Cup final and Keith has to have played top four minutes or it stays a 3rd. I'd give up a 2nd round pick for that. I can see that point however I think the condition is useless and unnecessary. No salary was retained thus hindering the AAV of the team so the fact that the Oilers are paying full price for a 38 year old player is enough. There is no reason to do any favors for Chicago and yet KH gave them the Jones they wanted as a recruiting tool for the better Jones, he gave them the condition they wanted and should not have needed to, and he paid full price. Furthermore, if Keith wanted to come to Edmonton why do the deal now instead of waiting for the expansion draft? The trade itself is not very creative and still leaves us with the Neal and Russell contracts that should be removed before next season unless Holland is looking to build a seniors league team in which case he can still go after Chara and Thornton. Finally, you did not address my first point and that being the Oilers do not need another smallish winger prospect.
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