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Post by drtaf on Apr 1, 2024 14:14:01 GMT -7
The thing that bothers me (or is going to bother me), is that we should have tied him up contract-wise before handing him the "golden key to the Lambo" that is the oilers PP. Same thing happened with Nurse, he got extensive PP opportunity just prior to signing his massive contract and put up top 5 numbers! You're basically giving the agent an RPG before commencing negotiations while the GM is left holding a pocket knife! Has bouchard exceeded all expectations? absolutely! but he gets to play 95% with McDrai and 100% of time with Ekholm. The fancy stats link posted does not nearly factor enough into how much that has benefited his game. that's not taking anything away from his accomplishments because he still actually has to do the job and he's totally impressed me with how he's stepped up to the plate. The problem now is; how do you argue against giving him a $9-10M salary x 7-8 years? How bad is that contract going to look if McDrai are both gone in 2-3 yrs and arent driving the offense? Ekholm is also well past the wrong side of 30 and so how long will he keep up his elite play? If we had tied him up 2yrs ago at sub $5-6M for 5-8yrs, we'd be looking at a great contract now and reasonable return later on, regardless of what happens down the road. folks are going to say hindsight's 20-20 or its not KH's fault he had no money to sign the long term deal, but those are both B.S. Would it have been a gamble to give bouch a long term contract before trading Barrie away and letting him drive the PP? Absolutely, about the same type of gamble as giving Drai $8.5Mx8 after 1 really good season and playoffs. People keep forgetting, it's the GM's job to predict who's going to break out before they actually do, it's why they have their jobs! Giving Bouch an $80-90M now, is something any monkey can do! LOL, Doc sometimes you are over the top and this is one of those times. You are without a doubt Holland's biggest critic, you rarely praise him and when you do you still get a dig in at him one way or another because you just can't help yourself, it kills you to say something good about him. So now Bouchard has surpassed expectations going into a new contract and because Holland's replacement is facing a large contract it gives you another opportunity to rip Holland a new one. Let's face it Doc, if Holland had given the young Bouchard a contract like you are suggesting, you would have been shouting from the rooftops that senile old Holland screwed up again with such a massive over payment of an unproven player. Also as it stands now the Oilers are barely under the cap, so look at all the other trades we would not have been able to make for the team we have right now. I can only imagine all the digs you would have hurled at Holland over Bouchard's present contract duration. I have to give it to you though Doc, you are entertaining! What you fail to understand T is that it's his primary job to predict who's going to be a stud and who's going to be a dud!! Its why he gets paid $5M big ones a year! You'd also be wrong suggesting I'd give KH shiite if he had wrapped him up for $5x8 2 yrs ago since I have no problem giving him kudos when making a good deal, even if i thought the deal was initially a bad one (Hyman the prime example). However, if he'd given bouch that deal and he turned out to be another Yam/JP then yeah, darn right i'd give him shiite (again, it's his job to get it right)! Bouch could finish top 3 scoring this season and command a $9M+ cap hit and saying that KH didnt have the cap space, or couldn't have predicted he'd turn out as a PP QB stud, is just making excuses. He's basically been 50:50 on good and bad deals, and as i've said numerous times before; that might be "awesome" when compared to other oiler GMs, but the really good GMs get their important decisions right about 75-80% of the time (no one's perfect). In this case he fumbled the ball and the next Gm could well end up dealing with a "4th and very long" situation! To put it in context, this situation is becoming a carbon copy of the nurse situation and whereas i've always maintained that nurse's contract was 50-75% PC's fault, when the next Gm has to negotiate Bouchard's deal and it ends up also paying him $2-3M too much, it will be 100% on Kenny. If i'm wrong and it becomes a "drai-like deal, i'll have no problem giving him the praise and eating the crow!
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Post by mrtea on Apr 1, 2024 15:26:12 GMT -7
LOL, Doc sometimes you are over the top and this is one of those times. You are without a doubt Holland's biggest critic, you rarely praise him and when you do you still get a dig in at him one way or another because you just can't help yourself, it kills you to say something good about him. So now Bouchard has surpassed expectations going into a new contract and because Holland's replacement is facing a large contract it gives you another opportunity to rip Holland a new one. Let's face it Doc, if Holland had given the young Bouchard a contract like you are suggesting, you would have been shouting from the rooftops that senile old Holland screwed up again with such a massive over payment of an unproven player. Also as it stands now the Oilers are barely under the cap, so look at all the other trades we would not have been able to make for the team we have right now. I can only imagine all the digs you would have hurled at Holland over Bouchard's present contract duration. I have to give it to you though Doc, you are entertaining! What you fail to understand T is that it's his primary job to predict who's going to be a stud and who's going to be a dud!! Its why he gets paid $5M big ones a year! You'd also be wrong suggesting I'd give KH shiite if he had wrapped him up for $5x8 2 yrs ago since I have no problem giving him kudos when making a good deal, even if i thought the deal was initially a bad one (Hyman the prime example). However, if he'd given bouch that deal and he turned out to be another Yam/JP then yeah, darn right i'd give him shiite (again, it's his job to get it right)! Bouch could finish top 3 scoring this season and command a $9M+ cap hit and saying that KH didnt have the cap space, or couldn't have predicted he'd turn out as a PP QB stud, is just making excuses. He's basically been 50:50 on good and bad deals, and as i've said numerous times before; that might be "awesome" when compared to other oiler GMs, but the really good GMs get their important decisions right about 75-80% of the time (no one's perfect). In this case he fumbled the ball and the next Gm could well end up dealing with a "4th and very long" situation! To put it in context, this situation is becoming a carbon copy of the nurse situation and whereas i've always maintained that nurse's contract was 50-75% PC's fault, when the next Gm has to negotiate Bouchard's deal and it ends up also paying him $2-3M too much, it will be 100% on Kenny. If i'm wrong and it becomes a "drai-like deal, i'll have no problem giving him the praise and eating the crow! I don't know Doc, those are pretty high standards being 75-80% right all the time. Are there any GM's out there that good that their correct decision making is 75-80% of the time. How many GM's around the league stack up to that percentage? Going back to Bouchard's last contract, do you really think there was a chance in hell that Bouchard's camp would sign an 8 year contract that only averaged 5 mil a year? I mean c'mon everyone knows he was projected to possibly be elite someday, why would they settle so low on such a long contract. No chance that was ever going to happen even for someone like me with understanding difficulties. When Holland was trying to negotiate Bouchard's last contract, it wasn't that he couldn't predict how good of a PP quarter back he would be, it was that there was no room for a larger contract at that time. That is not making excuses, that is reality in the cap world whether you recognize it or not and whether you admit it or not. Who would live up to your expectations as our next GM? It's going to be interesting to see whether or not you like the next GM for the Oilers. Ironically, you might end up wishing for ol' Kenny back. Nah, fat chance of that happening.
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Post by drtaf on Apr 2, 2024 8:39:18 GMT -7
What you fail to understand T is that it's his primary job to predict who's going to be a stud and who's going to be a dud!! Its why he gets paid $5M big ones a year! You'd also be wrong suggesting I'd give KH shiite if he had wrapped him up for $5x8 2 yrs ago since I have no problem giving him kudos when making a good deal, even if i thought the deal was initially a bad one (Hyman the prime example). However, if he'd given bouch that deal and he turned out to be another Yam/JP then yeah, darn right i'd give him shiite (again, it's his job to get it right)! Bouch could finish top 3 scoring this season and command a $9M+ cap hit and saying that KH didnt have the cap space, or couldn't have predicted he'd turn out as a PP QB stud, is just making excuses. He's basically been 50:50 on good and bad deals, and as i've said numerous times before; that might be "awesome" when compared to other oiler GMs, but the really good GMs get their important decisions right about 75-80% of the time (no one's perfect). In this case he fumbled the ball and the next Gm could well end up dealing with a "4th and very long" situation! To put it in context, this situation is becoming a carbon copy of the nurse situation and whereas i've always maintained that nurse's contract was 50-75% PC's fault, when the next Gm has to negotiate Bouchard's deal and it ends up also paying him $2-3M too much, it will be 100% on Kenny. If i'm wrong and it becomes a "drai-like deal, i'll have no problem giving him the praise and eating the crow! I don't know Doc, those are pretty high standards being 75-80% right all the time. Are there any GM's out there that good that their correct decision making is 75-80% of the time. How many GM's around the league stack up to that percentage? Going back to Bouchard's last contract, do you really think there was a chance in hell that Bouchard's camp would sign an 8 year contract that only averaged 5 mil a year? I mean c'mon everyone knows he was projected to possibly be elite someday, why would they settle so low on such a long contract. No chance that was ever going to happen even for someone like me with understanding difficulties. When Holland was trying to negotiate Bouchard's last contract, it wasn't that he couldn't predict how good of a PP quarter back he would be, it was that there was no room for a larger contract at that time. That is not making excuses, that is reality in the cap world whether you recognize it or not and whether you admit it or not. Who would live up to your expectations as our next GM? It's going to be interesting to see whether or not you like the next GM for the Oilers. Ironically, you might end up wishing for ol' Kenny back. Nah, fat chance of that happening. I actually do think some GMs get it right 3 out of 4 times they make a deal, the evidence is usually whoever is near top of the league . It was widely circulated that Bill Zito was on the shortlist as our next GM when KH suddenly threw his hat in the ring, and given his connections to the old boys club, it quickly became a slam dunk. Zito's Panthers are now near or at the top and he's made very few mis-steps along the way. I can't deny that Zito's job is infinitely easier in FLA than it is in EDM, so I cant say whether he'd have the same success here, but offloading huberdeau for Tkachuk for example was a masterclass, even though I actually questioned that deal at the time (my own bias)? He correctly identified huberdeau, was due for a massive pay raise and was on wrong side of 30 and that MT was due the same pay raise, but he was just about to come into his prime (btw I still hate MT and it chokes me to say that:-). He had to give up weeger as well, who IMO is an absolute stud but that's the price tre wanted and he still pulled the trigger. The result was a surprise trip to the SCF and this year a SC fav? I do not disguise that i think KH hasn't done nearly as good a job as he was paid to do. He is the #1 highest paid GM in the league, yet I dont think he's in the top 10 of Gms. I'd say he's around the middle or 15-16th? I'm curious, where do you think he sits in the league as a GM? I sometimes feel folks hold him to the same standards as they would you or I, ie as fans, we sometimes get it right, sometimes wrong. KH however, is paid as 1 of only 32 people on the planet to do a better job than anyone else at building an NHL team. It's the same thing for Connor Brown. He got paid $4M to be McD's winger and score 20+ goals and 50+ points. Some folks seem to think its fine that instead, we get 5goals 10pts and have a 4th line winger who kills penalties? You can argue that he's still a damn-sight better hockey player than I could ever be, but that's not really the point is it? You shouldn't compare him to me, you compare him to other NHLers making $4M. Back to bouch, the old saying, if you dont learn from your mistakes, you are doomed to repeat them? well, I'm guessing, just like Nurse, he's going to end up being overpaid by $2-3M and plenty of folks will argue that KH (or the next GM) had no choice, same as the folks who claim KH had no choice but to give Nurse $9.25x8. The truth however, is KH simply didn't learn from it, or didn't anticipate this happening, yet that's exactly what he gets paid big bucks for?
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Post by mrtea on Apr 2, 2024 10:41:51 GMT -7
I don't know Doc, those are pretty high standards being 75-80% right all the time. Are there any GM's out there that good that their correct decision making is 75-80% of the time. How many GM's around the league stack up to that percentage? Going back to Bouchard's last contract, do you really think there was a chance in hell that Bouchard's camp would sign an 8 year contract that only averaged 5 mil a year? I mean c'mon everyone knows he was projected to possibly be elite someday, why would they settle so low on such a long contract. No chance that was ever going to happen even for someone like me with understanding difficulties. When Holland was trying to negotiate Bouchard's last contract, it wasn't that he couldn't predict how good of a PP quarter back he would be, it was that there was no room for a larger contract at that time. That is not making excuses, that is reality in the cap world whether you recognize it or not and whether you admit it or not. Who would live up to your expectations as our next GM? It's going to be interesting to see whether or not you like the next GM for the Oilers. Ironically, you might end up wishing for ol' Kenny back. Nah, fat chance of that happening. I actually do think some GMs get it right 3 out of 4 times they make a deal, the evidence is usually whoever is near top of the league . It was widely circulated that Bill Zito was on the shortlist as our next GM when KH suddenly threw his hat in the ring, and given his connections to the old boys club, it quickly became a slam dunk. Zito's Panthers are now near or at the top and he's made very few mis-steps along the way. I can't deny that Zito's job is infinitely easier in FLA than it is in EDM, so I cant say whether he'd have the same success here, but offloading huberdeau for Tkachuk for example was a masterclass, even though I actually questioned that deal at the time (my own bias)? He correctly identified huberdeau, was due for a massive pay raise and was on wrong side of 30 and that MT was due the same pay raise, but he was just about to come into his prime (btw I still hate MT and it chokes me to say that:-). He had to give up weeger as well, who IMO is an absolute stud but that's the price tre wanted and he still pulled the trigger. The result was a surprise trip to the SCF and this year a SC fav? I do not disguise that i think KH hasn't done nearly as good a job as he was paid to do. He is the #1 highest paid GM in the league, yet I dont think he's in the top 10 of Gms. I'd say he's around the middle or 15-16th? I'm curious, where do you think he sits in the league as a GM? I sometimes feel folks hold him to the same standards as they would you or I, ie as fans, we sometimes get it right, sometimes wrong. KH however, is paid as 1 of only 32 people on the planet to do a better job than anyone else at building an NHL team. It's the same thing for Connor Brown. He got paid $4M to be McD's winger and score 20+ goals and 50+ points. Some folks seem to think its fine that instead, we get 5goals 10pts and have a 4th line winger who kills penalties? You can argue that he's still a damn-sight better hockey player than I could ever be, but that's not really the point is it? You shouldn't compare him to me, you compare him to other NHLers making $4M. Back to bouch, the old saying, if you dont learn from your mistakes, you are doomed to repeat them? well, I'm guessing, just like Nurse, he's going to end up being overpaid by $2-3M and plenty of folks will argue that KH (or the next GM) had no choice, same as the folks who claim KH had no choice but to give Nurse $9.25x8. The truth however, is KH simply didn't learn from it, or didn't anticipate this happening, yet that's exactly what he gets paid big bucks for? Personally I rate Holland as being a good GM for the Oilers during his time at the helm. When he took over the Oilers were out of the playoffs two years straight and he got them in, in his first year and that was the goal he had set for that year. Holland inherited a team with very little cap room, a below average defense and many holes throughout the team and a boat anchor named Lucic(who I like a lot, but was not a fit in Edmonton). The Oilers have become contenders under Holland's management and this season are widely considered to be Cup favorites by the odds makers. Across the league if I had to rate him, I'd put him in the top 10 GM's league wide. The year we played in the Western Conference Finals it could be argued he was in the top 4 Gm's because of where the Oilers finished. Usually I don't put too much thought about where Holland ranks in the league, I just know he's been good for the Oilers. Has he been perfect, no but I don't expect him to be flawless. Being a GM is not an easy job and he's only human. Holland is leaving the Oilers in much better shape than what he faced coming into the job and for me that means he did a good job.
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Post by drtaf on Apr 2, 2024 13:19:57 GMT -7
I actually do think some GMs get it right 3 out of 4 times they make a deal, the evidence is usually whoever is near top of the league . It was widely circulated that Bill Zito was on the shortlist as our next GM when KH suddenly threw his hat in the ring, and given his connections to the old boys club, it quickly became a slam dunk. Zito's Panthers are now near or at the top and he's made very few mis-steps along the way. I can't deny that Zito's job is infinitely easier in FLA than it is in EDM, so I cant say whether he'd have the same success here, but offloading huberdeau for Tkachuk for example was a masterclass, even though I actually questioned that deal at the time (my own bias)? He correctly identified huberdeau, was due for a massive pay raise and was on wrong side of 30 and that MT was due the same pay raise, but he was just about to come into his prime (btw I still hate MT and it chokes me to say that:-). He had to give up weeger as well, who IMO is an absolute stud but that's the price tre wanted and he still pulled the trigger. The result was a surprise trip to the SCF and this year a SC fav? I do not disguise that i think KH hasn't done nearly as good a job as he was paid to do. He is the #1 highest paid GM in the league, yet I dont think he's in the top 10 of Gms. I'd say he's around the middle or 15-16th? I'm curious, where do you think he sits in the league as a GM? I sometimes feel folks hold him to the same standards as they would you or I, ie as fans, we sometimes get it right, sometimes wrong. KH however, is paid as 1 of only 32 people on the planet to do a better job than anyone else at building an NHL team. It's the same thing for Connor Brown. He got paid $4M to be McD's winger and score 20+ goals and 50+ points. Some folks seem to think its fine that instead, we get 5goals 10pts and have a 4th line winger who kills penalties? You can argue that he's still a damn-sight better hockey player than I could ever be, but that's not really the point is it? You shouldn't compare him to me, you compare him to other NHLers making $4M. Back to bouch, the old saying, if you dont learn from your mistakes, you are doomed to repeat them? well, I'm guessing, just like Nurse, he's going to end up being overpaid by $2-3M and plenty of folks will argue that KH (or the next GM) had no choice, same as the folks who claim KH had no choice but to give Nurse $9.25x8. The truth however, is KH simply didn't learn from it, or didn't anticipate this happening, yet that's exactly what he gets paid big bucks for? Personally I rate Holland as being a good GM for the Oilers during his time at the helm. When he took over the Oilers were out of the playoffs two years straight and he got them in, in his first year and that was the goal he had set for that year. Holland inherited a team with very little cap room, a below average defense and many holes throughout the team and a boat anchor named Lucic(who I like a lot, but was not a fit in Edmonton). The Oilers have become contenders under Holland's management and this season are widely considered to be Cup favorites by the odds makers. Across the league if I had to rate him, I'd put him in the top 10 GM's league wide. The year we played in the Western Conference Finals it could be argued he was in the top 4 Gm's because of where the Oilers finished. Usually I don't put too much thought about where Holland ranks in the league, I just know he's been good for the Oilers. Has he been perfect, no but I don't expect him to be flawless. Being a GM is not an easy job and he's only human. Holland is leaving the Oilers in much better shape than what he faced coming into the job and for me that means he did a good job. fair enough and I agree that being GM of the oilers is probably in the top 5 hardest GM positions in the league so i'm not saying he has it easy. I also agree he's done a pretty good job (but I'm looking for him to be the best lol). I guess I'm just frustrated that the 1-2 mis-steps that he's done i feel may well have cost us a cup in the prime years of McD and Drai and it is only speculation that someone such as zito or someone else could have done any better? In a cap world losing even $1-2M on a player or deal can mean the difference between winning and losing, especially in a market like this where its hard to attract players. And if we do manage to re-sign McD and Drai (and Bouch), then the purse strings will be even tighter moving forward, so we're going to need someone who is even better than KH to do the dealing, otherwise there's a good chance we may go backwards? On one hand, he has undoubtedly left the oilers in a better place than what Chirelli left, but I'm beginning to think with all these massive deals looming, the next batter up, may have an even tougher task to move the needle closer towards winning a cup. I also wont be shocked if it all blows up for the new guy if the dynamic duo decide that they have better chances of chasing a cup elsewhere? Time will tell?
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Post by happyhappy on Apr 2, 2024 18:43:59 GMT -7
Hughes 82pts -8 games remaining Makar 81pts -7 Bouch 76pts -9Josi 76pts - 8 GBG!
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Post by Bronco73 on Apr 2, 2024 22:07:30 GMT -7
Hughes 82pts -8 games remaining Makar 81pts -7 Bouch 76pts -9Josi 76pts - 8 GBG! wow, he COULD do it!
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Post by AlwaysOil on Apr 2, 2024 23:39:51 GMT -7
Hughes 82pts -8 games remaining Makar 81pts -7 Bouch 76pts -9Josi 76pts - 8 GBG! wow, he COULD do it! But being an Oiler player when it comes time for the Norris, most of the media be going “who?”. Hope he gets the Conn Smythe.
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Post by drtaf on Apr 3, 2024 8:14:53 GMT -7
But being an Oiler player when it comes time for the Norris, most of the media be going “who?”. Hope he gets the Conn Smythe. Conn Smythe would be AWESOME for a whole lotta reasons . I honestly think Josi deserves it. What he's done for the Preds since January is incredible. he's going at a almost 1.5pt per game and dragged a team from knowhere near playoffs to being basically guaranteed! One could possibly argue Bouch has done similar, but Josi doesn't have a dynamic duo carrying a large part of the freight either-he's THE guy in Nashville
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Post by happyhappy on Apr 3, 2024 8:32:33 GMT -7
Yeah not a chance EB gets the Norris this year, maybe down the road though... Agreed Doc, Josi has been an outstanding Dman on a fairly mediocre Nashville team for some time now. However the Conn Smyth is awarded for playoff performance not reg season. It sure would be fun for EB to get that one!!
2 goals for Hughes in the nix loss yesterday. Our boy has some work to do to catch him.
Hughes 84 (7gr) Makar 81 (7) Bouch 76 (9) Josi 76 (7)
GBG!
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Post by yuke on Apr 3, 2024 13:31:52 GMT -7
Hughes 82pts -8 games remaining Makar 81pts -7 Bouch 76pts -9Josi 76pts - 8 GBG! Didn't Barrie get top D point producer one year here?
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Post by happyhappy on Apr 3, 2024 15:01:41 GMT -7
Hughes 82pts -8 games remaining Makar 81pts -7 Bouch 76pts -9Josi 76pts - 8 Barrie 15pts - 8 GBG! Didn't Barrie get top D point producer one year here? Probably, did u want me to add him to the list, haha. Here he is. He's got some ground to make up these last few games.
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Post by drtaf on Apr 4, 2024 8:31:58 GMT -7
Yeah not a chance EB gets the Norris this year, maybe down the road though... Agreed Doc, Josi has been an outstanding Dman on a fairly mediocre Nashville team for some time now. However the Conn Smyth is awarded for playoff performance not reg season. It sure would be fun for EB to get that one!! 2 goals for Hughes in the nix loss yesterday. Our boy has some work to do to catch him. Hughes 84 (7gr) Makar 81 (7) Bouch 76 (9) Josi 76 (7) GBG! Duh HH! I was referring to josi deserving the Norris and that a good consolation for EB would be to win conn Smythe (for lots of reasons). I've even see josi in some Hart convos? again that wont happen with this year's race going down the way it is, ut is a good indication he deserves the norris at very least as "his consolation"
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Post by happyhappy on Apr 8, 2024 17:21:47 GMT -7
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Post by happyhappy on Apr 8, 2024 17:31:28 GMT -7
Unlikely Bouch catches Hughes. Probably not Makar either. But man, helluva season for Evan!
Quinnberly 86 pts - 5 games remaining before tonight Makaroni 84 pts - 4gr BouchBomb 79 pts - 6gr
Not over yet. Bouch could catch Makar?!
edit) Not sure why I bolded all that but dunno how to get rid of it haha.
edit 2) BRONCO TO THE RESCUE!
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Post by Bronco73 on Apr 12, 2024 13:04:24 GMT -7
Unlikely Bouch catches Hughes. Probably not Makar either. But man, helluva season for Evan! Quinnberly 86 pts - 5 games remaining before tonight Makaroni 84 pts - 4gr BouchBomb 79 pts - 6gr Not over yet. Bouch could catch Makar?! edit) Not sure why I bolded all that but dunno how to get rid of it haha. edit 2) BRONCO TO THE RESCUE! fixed.
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