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Post by SuperDave17 on Jul 30, 2023 19:30:22 GMT -7
When your team defence is shat it affects your save percentage. I don’t care who the goalie is. I don't disagree at all. What I'm having a hard time reconciling is... how the hell was our D not shat when they were in front of Campbell? Just out of curiosity, Bronco, some fans and writers have suggested that the game was usually a done deal if and when we finally got around to putting Campbell in net. Therefore the other team had pretty much mailed it in. And therefore Jack's stats need to be viewed with a quite skeptical filter. I take it your eye test didn't share that observation? I'm not sure myself, as my memories of those games has become foggy.
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Post by sharptooth on Jul 30, 2023 19:34:16 GMT -7
When your team defence is shat it affects your save percentage. I don’t care who the goalie is. I don't disagree at all. What I'm having a hard time reconciling is... how the hell was our D not shat when they were in front of Campbell? Cambell was very limited time. Unfortunately I would have liked Woody to play Campbell more. He didn’t so here we are lol.
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Post by Bronco73 on Jul 30, 2023 19:58:33 GMT -7
I don't disagree at all. What I'm having a hard time reconciling is... how the hell was our D not shat when they were in front of Campbell? Just out of curiosity, Bronco, some fans and writers have suggested that the game was usually a done deal if and when we finally got around to putting Campbell in net. Therefore the other team had pretty much mailed it in. And therefore Jack's stats need to be viewed with a quite skeptical filter. I take it your eye test didn't share that observation? I'm not sure myself, as my memories of those games has become foggy. That's an argument that can be made for sure... But I'd argue that no team in it's right mind, in the playoffs, against McDavid and Draisaitl would coast even with a healthy lead. That being said, Campbell played in 4 games, and in those for games played a total of 120 minutes. That's an average of 30 minutes per game, or half the game, that's a long time to coast if you are the opponent. And that argument has been brought up a few times SuperDave... I honestly don't think it's as solid an argument as people think, especially in the playoffs. Teams don't coast in the playoffs, ever.
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Post by Bronco73 on Jul 30, 2023 20:00:01 GMT -7
I don't disagree at all. What I'm having a hard time reconciling is... how the hell was our D not shat when they were in front of Campbell? Cambell was very limited time. Unfortunately I would have liked Woody to play Campbell more. He didn’t so here we are lol. 4 games, 120 minutes. That equates to half of each game he played on average. Lot's of time for our D to play like Mangiapane in front of him. But if they did, he still made the stops.
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Post by drtaf on Jul 30, 2023 20:49:01 GMT -7
Just out of curiosity, Bronco, some fans and writers have suggested that the game was usually a done deal if and when we finally got around to putting Campbell in net. Therefore the other team had pretty much mailed it in. And therefore Jack's stats need to be viewed with a quite skeptical filter. I take it your eye test didn't share that observation? I'm not sure myself, as my memories of those games has become foggy. That's an argument that can be made for sure... But I'd argue that no team in it's right mind, in the playoffs, against McDavid and Draisaitl would coast even with a healthy lead. That being said, Campbell played in 4 games, and in those for games played a total of 120 minutes. That's an average of 30 minutes per game, or half the game, that's a long time to coast if you are the opponent. And that argument has been brought up a few times SuperDave... I honestly don't think it's as solid an argument as people think, especially in the playoffs. Teams don't coast in the playoffs, ever. As someone who also wanted to give game 6 to Campbell (more based on a "what have we got lose philosophy"), I think that SD17 is partly correct and I also think that you are overlooking just how shat JC was the entire year!! Woody gave JC time and time again during the reg season to come out of his year long funk and he just made bigger and bigger piles of crap. It was pretty evident that the coaching staff had zero faith (justified) in JC and threw him in not even as a last resort, but more to try and give STew a breather? I dont know how the players felt and I'm sure they'd lie and say they had = confidence in whoever went in but imo the crease became and is now Stews to lose and JC is going to have to go above and beyond to win it back, unless stew des a JC and craps the bed this year. If that happens, KH better back up the brinks truck for Helly and throw however many picks at him! Bottom line: ifs butts candies and nuts no one can say with any degree of confidence JC would have been better than SS in playoffs? since Woody never tried him as a starter, we'll never know and its now all past tense! Lets hope both of them bring it this year and we have a "good" goalie controversy to talk about, not a shiity one, cos we dont have the cap space to fix a shiity one!
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Post by Bronco73 on Jul 30, 2023 21:08:30 GMT -7
That's an argument that can be made for sure... But I'd argue that no team in it's right mind, in the playoffs, against McDavid and Draisaitl would coast even with a healthy lead. That being said, Campbell played in 4 games, and in those for games played a total of 120 minutes. That's an average of 30 minutes per game, or half the game, that's a long time to coast if you are the opponent. And that argument has been brought up a few times SuperDave... I honestly don't think it's as solid an argument as people think, especially in the playoffs. Teams don't coast in the playoffs, ever. As someone who also wanted to give game 6 to Campbell (more based on a "what have we got lose philosophy"), I think that SD17 is partly correct and I also think that you are overlooking just how shat JC was the entire year!! Woody gave JC time and time again during the reg season to come out of his year long funk and he just made bigger and bigger piles of crap. It was pretty evident that the coaching staff had zero faith (justified) in JC and threw him in not even as a last resort, but more to try and give STew a breather? I dont know how the players felt and I'm sure they'd lie and say they had = confidence in whoever went in but imo the crease became and is now Stews to lose and JC is going to have to go above and beyond to win it back, unless stew des a JC and craps the bed this year. If that happens, KH better back up the brinks truck for Helly and throw however many picks at him! Bottom line: ifs butts candies and nuts no one can say with any degree of confidence JC would have been better than SS in playoffs? since Woody never tried him as a starter, we'll never know and its now all past tense! Lets hope both of them bring it this year and we have a "good" goalie controversy to talk about, not a shiity one, cos we dont have the cap space to fix a shiity one! If we are going to take into account how he played during the year, we should also take into account how he played in the months before the playoffs. From January 11'th until the start of the playoffs (3 months), Campbell was 12W 1L in games he started and .916 sv%. He got out of his funk... and nobody noticed. I get he had a terrible start to the season and it went on for months.. But Campbell put his Mangiapane together at the right time, and in 2023 and especially into the playoffs his stats are very good. Skinner is a hometown hero here in Lethbridge, and I have a bias for Skinner for that reason... but I'm not blinded enough to not see when the other goalie deserved to get some starts, especially in the playoffs.
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Post by fogolin2 on Jul 31, 2023 11:35:12 GMT -7
[br Fixed it. Don't give high scoring chances and puck will stay out of the net a lot more. I’m not denying defense helps goaltending, but the goalie is the last line (obviously) of defense, and Skinner played like a sieve in the playoffs. He let too many goals find the back of the net. Skinner's biggest problem was Campbell. Skinner never should have been in that position, especially as a rookie. Campbell being unplayable was the biggest single factor in our defeat.
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Post by neufab94 on Jul 31, 2023 15:09:03 GMT -7
I’m not denying defense helps goaltending, but the goalie is the last line (obviously) of defense, and Skinner played like a sieve in the playoffs. He let too many goals find the back of the net. Skinner's biggest problem was Campbell. Skinner never should have been in that position, especially as a rookie. Campbell being unplayable was the biggest single factor in our defeat. I think both goalies will be better this season. I also expect better defensive play from the forwards. The Oilers should be considered as a Stanley Cup contender and have a real shot at winning the west. A healthy Kane, a full year of Ekholm and adding Brown are positives. Holloway will be an improvement over both JP and Yamamoto. Janmark was good in the regular season and the team suffered when he got hurt in the playoffs. Ceci was also not at 100% so I expect him to be more like the previous season. As a fan base it is time to let go of the doubt created by the decade of darkness and realize that the Oilers are a good team. For sure 3 lines deep with decent potential on the bottom 3 and a decent looking defense when healthy. When this team gels and plays as a group they are able to dominate games. Go Oilers go! Stanley Cup 2024
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Post by drtaf on Jul 31, 2023 16:39:05 GMT -7
I’m not denying defense helps goaltending, but the goalie is the last line (obviously) of defense, and Skinner played like a sieve in the playoffs. He let too many goals find the back of the net. Skinner's biggest problem was Campbell. Skinner never should have been in that position, especially as a rookie. Campbell being unplayable was the biggest single factor in our defeat. I lean towards this version of events, but still would have given JC the game 6 start as skinner had flatlined. I just dont think JC would have been good enough to change the outcome and tbh I'm very skeptical he ever will be the solution. Love for him to prove me wrong and he will have a whole season to do it now!
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Post by mrtea on Jul 31, 2023 17:40:45 GMT -7
Skinner's biggest problem was Campbell. Skinner never should have been in that position, especially as a rookie. Campbell being unplayable was the biggest single factor in our defeat. I lean towards this version of events, but still would have given JC the game 6 start as skinner had flatlined. I just dont think JC would have been good enough to change the outcome and tbh I'm very skeptical he ever will be the solution. Love for him to prove me wrong and he will have a whole season to do it now! I'm not sure how good Campbell will be this season, but I'm sure he can't be as bad as last season. His nerves got the best of him and I'm willing to bet he's been doing a lot to fix that situation for this season. I'm hoping we'll see flashes of brilliance like he showed with the Leafs at times. Back then he couldn't sustain it and that is the other thing he will have to try to deal with....consistency. I'm hoping for him because the alternative is not in the Oilers favor. It would be great to see Soup and Skinner as a good tandem that the Oilers have faith because they're that good, and not because we need them to be.
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Post by fogolin2 on Aug 1, 2023 7:42:15 GMT -7
I lean towards this version of events, but still would have given JC the game 6 start as skinner had flatlined. I just dont think JC would have been good enough to change the outcome and tbh I'm very skeptical he ever will be the solution. Love for him to prove me wrong and he will have a whole season to do it now! I'm not sure how good Campbell will be this season, but I'm sure he can't be as bad as last season. His nerves got the best of him and I'm willing to bet he's been doing a lot to fix that situation for this season. I'm hoping we'll see flashes of brilliance like he showed with the Leafs at times. Back then he couldn't sustain it and that is the other thing he will have to try to deal with....consistency. I'm hoping for him because the alternative is not in the Oilers favor. It would be great to see Soup and Skinner as a good tandem that the Oilers have faith because they're that good, and not because we need them to be. I don't expect either of them to be a star, but it's reasonable to hope for them to be an above average tandem. Apparently Soup was still fiddling with equipment choices during the playoffs. Wild. That has to be behind him to start the season.
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Post by mrtea on Aug 1, 2023 8:38:37 GMT -7
The boys were out for Hyman's annual golf tournament and Draisaitl made a comment when talking about his feelings after being eliminated. His comment was basically that Vegas is a good team and they had a goalie that made the saves. What he didn't say, but didn't have to say was that we didn't. That is the second time I've heard him make a comment like that, so it's safe to say that Leon believes our goaltending should have been better. You can also be fairly certain that if Leon believes that, he probably voiced similar sentaments to Conner and the boys.
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Post by yuke on Aug 1, 2023 8:40:25 GMT -7
The boys were out for Hyman's annual golf tournament and Draisaitl made a comment when talking about his feelings after being eliminated. His comment was basically that Vegas is a good team and they had a goalie that made the saves. What he didn't say, but didn't have to 9say was that we didn't. That is the second time I've heard him make a comment like that, so it's safe to say that Leon believes our goaltending should have been better. You can also be fairly certain that if Leon believes that, he probably voiced similar sentaments to Conner and the boys. Not exactly, both LD and CM mentioned they ran into a hot goaltender. I never once took they blamed anything on their tending, nor hinting to the fact.
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Post by mrtea on Aug 1, 2023 9:56:05 GMT -7
The boys were out for Hyman's annual golf tournament and Draisaitl made a comment when talking about his feelings after being eliminated. His comment was basically that Vegas is a good team and they had a goalie that made the saves. What he didn't say, but didn't have to 9say was that we didn't. That is the second time I've heard him make a comment like that, so it's safe to say that Leon believes our goaltending should have been better. You can also be fairly certain that if Leon believes that, he probably voiced similar sentaments to Conner and the boys. Not exactly, both LD and CM mentioned they ran into a hot goaltender. I never once took they blamed anything on their tending, nor hinting to the fact. You can interpret it any way you want, but when he only mentions one position that seems pretty precise. That being said, if he (Leon) only said it once you might say that it was just a passing comment, but he has made that specific comment twice now so obviously it's a little more than a passing comment. When you say the biggest difference in the series was their goalie making the saves, how else can you interpret it other than ours did not?
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Post by yuke on Aug 1, 2023 14:57:14 GMT -7
Not exactly, both LD and CM mentioned they ran into a hot goaltender. I never once took they blamed anything on their tending, nor hinting to the fact. You can interpret it any way you want, but when he only mentions one position that seems pretty precise. That being said, if he (Leon) only said it once you might say that it was just a passing comment, but he has made that specific comment twice now so obviously it's a little more than a passing comment. When you say the biggest difference in the series was their goalie making the saves, how else can you interpret it other than ours did not? "They are a good team, they are deep, their goalie played extremely well in the playoffs which is big". Then he goes on and says something to the effect it is nothing this team cannot handle. Zero mention that biggest difference was their goalie. I guess the difference between you and I is I don't blame our goaltending alone for the loss where you and others do. You lean one way and I lean the other. If I could pick 1 main turning point it would be Nurse getting a game misconduct and taking our advantage away.
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Post by mrtea on Aug 1, 2023 15:58:22 GMT -7
You can interpret it any way you want, but when he only mentions one position that seems pretty precise. That being said, if he (Leon) only said it once you might say that it was just a passing comment, but he has made that specific comment twice now so obviously it's a little more than a passing comment. When you say the biggest difference in the series was their goalie making the saves, how else can you interpret it other than ours did not? "They are a good team, they are deep, their goalie played extremely well in the playoffs which is big". Then he goes on and says something to the effect it is nothing this team cannot handle. Zero mention that biggest difference was their goalie. I guess the difference between you and I is I don't blame our goaltending alone for the loss where you and others do. You lean one way and I lean the other. If I could pick 1 main turning point it would be Nurse getting a game misconduct and taking our advantage away. I have never said goaltending is the only reason the Oilers lost to Vegas, so please Yuke, don't put words in my mouth. I do believe goaltending was the most critical factor, but not the only one. Unlike you, I feel our goaltenders need to be better. Also like I have stated previously, I believe the whole team should be striving to be better. So Yuke, I'm fine with us not agreeing, but I'm not fine with you putting words in my mouth.
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Post by drtaf on Aug 1, 2023 17:31:07 GMT -7
"They are a good team, they are deep, their goalie played extremely well in the playoffs which is big". Then he goes on and says something to the effect it is nothing this team cannot handle. Zero mention that biggest difference was their goalie. I guess the difference between you and I is I don't blame our goaltending alone for the loss where you and others do. You lean one way and I lean the other. If I could pick 1 main turning point it would be Nurse getting a game misconduct and taking our advantage away. I have never said goaltending is the only reason the Oilers lost to Vegas, so please Yuke, don't put words in my mouth. I do believe goaltending was the most critical factor, but not the only one. Unlike you, I feel our goaltenders need to be better. Also like I have stated previously, I believe the whole team should be striving to be better. So Yuke, I'm fine with us not agreeing, but I'm not fine with you putting words in my mouth. This might sound wishy-washy but i think you're both right. I also kinda read between the lines that Drai basically said "LV got that one extra big save, we didnt"! However i dont think either Drai or McD are trying to say that was the only reason they lost. It was a factor, just as Bob becoming a Vesina goalie for the cats at just the right time was the diff between them thinking "they were so close to winning" and wondering if they made a "colossol mistake and should tear it all up?" Great goaltending "papers over a lot of cracks", we didn't get it so those cracks were exposed: such as not enough depth on defense, the top 6 (sans McDrai) going AWOL etc. Almost everything has to come together to win a cup. You may get lucky and not be 100% on 1 thing (I believe Avs won with av goaltending) but if you have more than 1 thing misfiring then chances are you wont win. Last playoffs i think we had 3 things not on all cylinders: goaltending, not enough production from non McDrai players and not enough depth/quality on D. If we get 2 out of 3 of those working this time around, we may very well win it all! I'm quite confident top 6 going AWOL wont be an issue this time, so that leaves G and D has to get better. Ironically, more often than not, if the D gets better, you'll see a sharp uptick in G so i'm hoping KH can still find another decent D from somewhere, or Broberg and Des really step up this season. If they do, lots to be optiistic about this year!!
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Post by mrtea on Aug 1, 2023 20:16:22 GMT -7
I have never said goaltending is the only reason the Oilers lost to Vegas, so please Yuke, don't put words in my mouth. I do believe goaltending was the most critical factor, but not the only one. Unlike you, I feel our goaltenders need to be better. Also like I have stated previously, I believe the whole team should be striving to be better. So Yuke, I'm fine with us not agreeing, but I'm not fine with you putting words in my mouth. This might sound wishy-washy but i think you're both right. I also kinda read between the lines that Drai basically said "LV got that one extra big save, we didnt"! However i dont think either Drai or McD are trying to say that was the only reason they lost. It was a factor, just as Bob becoming a Vesina goalie for the cats at just the right time was the diff between them thinking "they were so close to winning" and wondering if they made a "colossol mistake and should tear it all up?" Great goaltending "papers over a lot of cracks", we didn't get it so those cracks were exposed: such as not enough depth on defense, the top 6 (sans McDrai) going AWOL etc. Almost everything has to come together to win a cup. You may get lucky and not be 100% on 1 thing (I believe Avs won with av goaltending) but if you have more than 1 thing misfiring then chances are you wont win. Last playoffs i think we had 3 things not on all cylinders: goaltending, not enough production from non McDrai players and not enough depth/quality on D. If we get 2 out of 3 of those working this time around, we may very well win it all! I'm quite confident top 6 going AWOL wont be an issue this time, so that leaves G and D has to get better. Ironically, more often than not, if the D gets better, you'll see a sharp uptick in G so i'm hoping KH can still find another decent D from somewhere, or Broberg and Des really step up this season. If they do, lots to be optiistic about this year!! Desharnais is another example of a player that would be great to see take another step forward. As good as he was for a rookie season he was exposed as the competition ramped up. It would be nice to see him keep progressing because with that size, reach and willingness to engage, he could become a real late round gem. Broberg also as you say and for that matter Bouchard too could still use some improving. Nurse needs to get the details of his game worked out, because he didn't reach much consistency last season. Nurse would make some nice plays and then follow them bad judgement calls or blown coverage. I saw him let his man go wide without boxing him out and causing unnecessary running around too many times. He does make a lot of nice plays, but there is still some work to do there for him earning that salary.
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Post by yuke on Aug 1, 2023 21:55:44 GMT -7
"They are a good team, they are deep, their goalie played extremely well in the playoffs which is big". Then he goes on and says something to the effect it is nothing this team cannot handle. Zero mention that biggest difference was their goalie. I guess the difference between you and I is I don't blame our goaltending alone for the loss where you and others do. You lean one way and I lean the other. If I could pick 1 main turning point it would be Nurse getting a game misconduct and taking our advantage away. I have never said goaltending is the only reason the Oilers lost to Vegas, so please Yuke, don't put words in my mouth. I do believe goaltending was the most critical factor, but not the only one. Unlike you, I feel our goaltenders need to be better. Also like I have stated previously, I believe the whole team should be striving to be better. So Yuke, I'm fine with us not agreeing, but I'm not fine with you putting words in my mouth. Mr T, you wrote - You can interpret it any way you want, but when he only mentions one position that seems pretty precise. That being said, if he (Leon) only said it once you might say that it was just a passing comment, but he has made that specific comment twice now so obviously it's a little more than a passing comment. When you say the biggest difference in the series was their goalie making the saves, how else can you interpret it other than ours did not? Hey T, this is where I got that from, I didn't write it, you did. And Leon didn't say it either
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wilbo71
Draft pick
Certified Flunky
Posts: 47
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Post by wilbo71 on Aug 2, 2023 6:53:31 GMT -7
I’m not denying defense helps goaltending, but the goalie is the last line (obviously) of defense, and Skinner played like a sieve in the playoffs. He let too many goals find the back of the net. Skinner's biggest problem was Campbell. Skinner never should have been in that position, especially as a rookie. Campbell being unplayable was the biggest single factor in our defeat. Campbell stunk it up quite a bit during the regular season. However, when called up to take over for Skinned, he played really well. I don’t buy the argument the Knights let up, as no team does that in the playoffs, IMO. A few years ago, the Oilers were up 3-0 with ~ 5 minutes left in the third period and lost to the Kings (I believe it was them) in OT. So, he played better against the same team Skinned got skinned by.
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