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Post by fogolin2 on Aug 9, 2021 18:32:05 GMT -7
There's been a lot of discussion about it in a few other threads so I thought I'd start a discussion about the topic. It is a concern.
I think Hyman adds grit to the top6, but I wouldn't say he intimidates anyone.
Now that Nurse has established and been paid, as our #1 for the next decade, I don't want him dropping them often. We don't have anyone else to play those minutes, and he needs to avoid pointless injury.
Kassian....he's the wildcard...I don't think anybody knows what version of him is going to show up this season. He got his deal based on speed and toughness, and he didn't provide either last year. We need what he can bring, the question is; will he bring it?
We don't really have any prospects in the system that are thumpers.
Do we have any minutes for a guy like Gudbranson? Do we run with what we got and punish teams with the powerplay?
Could we trade Kass + for a goalie+facepuncher ?
I don't know, but team toughness is something we're clearly lacking. Does it even matter?
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Post by drtaf on Aug 9, 2021 19:15:51 GMT -7
I think the title says it all “Team toughness”. Mtl was so successful last season because of team toughness and not necessarily having an enforcer going around punching people. Jets are built similar. I would like a gudbranson type in the D-corp. Hyman, Foegele and DR add toughness while still being valuable players even though none would be considered a pugilist. Holloway is in same mould and maybe a bit tougher and Drai and PJ don’t back down so if Kass did what he was paid to do, I think we’d be ok, otherwise we need to find someone in that mould like a clutterbuck who is tough but can play a reg shift . IMO We’re no pushovers anymore but won’t necessarily scare anyone either. The balance is to be good enough to make the playoffs and tough to survive the playoffs. We’re good enough to make playoffs, still not sure if we’re tough enough to survive. Mtl and jets may not be so lucky this year to make the playoffs so it’s a tough balancing act to pull off .
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Post by windsoroiler on Aug 9, 2021 19:26:49 GMT -7
Foegele and perlini are both bigger guys with speed to add to Hyman. All add grit and forechecking which isn't team toughness but at the same time it makes us tougher to play against
All are upgrades over Ennis, Kahun, etc
So in my opinion we have upgraded when it comes to toughness.
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Post by mrtea on Aug 9, 2021 19:34:51 GMT -7
Toughness is more than just physically strong, it starts mentally by not being willing to quit or lose. It's an attitude that can be taught, but not everybody can learn it. Sometimes it takes getting beat down to decide that it's not going to happen again. Toughness properly harnessed can become a regular workman's shift. Guy's like Keith can teach it by demonstrating it each shift.
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Post by fogolin2 on Aug 9, 2021 20:53:11 GMT -7
Toughness is more than just physically strong, it starts mentally by not being willing to quit or lose. It's an attitude that can be taught, but not everybody can learn it. Sometimes it takes getting beat down to decide that it's not going to happen again. Toughness properly harnessed can become a regular workman's shift. Guy's like Keith can teach it by demonstrating it each shift. I think Archie is the kind of tough you're describing. Don't think I've ever seen him with the flippers off, but you sure know when you're playing against him.
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Post by Marshall Bruce Mathers III on Aug 10, 2021 1:46:44 GMT -7
Gudbranson is who should have been signed to replace Larsson, not Ceci. But I suspect Gudbranson would have cost double Ceci.
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Post by Marshall Bruce Mathers III on Aug 10, 2021 2:00:34 GMT -7
As for Kassian, he got his 3.2M not only for toughness but because he put up career numbers too. 15 goals and 34 points in 59 games. That's would be 47 points over a full 82 games.
If we do trade him, we would have to get some sort of nastiness back. But I dunno if that could happen because anyone willing to take Kassian's contract is probably looking for Kassian for that nastiness.
I wonder if someone like Arizona would trade Lawson Crouse for Kassian.
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south
Bakersfield Roster
Posts: 83
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Post by south on Aug 10, 2021 7:02:50 GMT -7
Through the regular season I believe that pesky persistence can compensate for 'toughness' by drawing penalties and having a lethal pp. However,come playoffs, when team defense, size and the officials not wanting to determain outcomes, not so much..Peskiness doesn't break up the cycle when the team gets pinned in our Dzone. Peskiness doesn't move players from in front of our net or stand the opposition up at the blueline.
The days of carrying an 'enforser' on the roster are gone. I certainly believe our forward group is much deeper with KH's off season moves, but against larger physical opponents I'm not sure we have much to neutralize that in our own zone. Time will tell.
Expecting Kass,after breaking his hand last season, to keep opponents 'honest' was asking a lot.
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Post by drtaf on Aug 10, 2021 7:39:22 GMT -7
As for Kassian, he got his 3.2M not only for toughness but because he put up career numbers too. 15 goals and 34 points in 59 games. That's would be 47 points over a full 82 games. If we do trade him, we would have to get some sort of nastiness back. But I dunno if that could happen because anyone willing to take Kassian's contract is probably looking for Kassian for that nastiness. I wonder if someone like Arizona would trade Lawson Crouse for Kassian. Sent from my SM-G998W using Tapatalk exactly! kass was finally starting to show his hockey skills not just his toughness when he was signed. Unfortunately, we haven't seen much of either since he did sign, still time for him to bounce back hopefully! As for gudbranson, I actually think he'll be signed somewhere for less than Ceci. he's been wandering around in the wilderness for a few years now bouncing from 1 team to another. his foot speed is a serious concern. He's another player who would be almost a liability in reg season but a huge benefit in the playoffs when the refs allow crosschecking, holding, interference etc., I'm not sure how we could fit him in here now with all our prospects needing ice-time as well
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Post by FloridaAltFan on Aug 10, 2021 15:19:14 GMT -7
Team toughness requires character and leadership, something I've been demanding from my team for a few years now. I think my team is trending in that direction now by sacrificing a bit of skill. Gio will be missed, but the dressing room will change as a result. Gio is much like the Sedins, great on ice play and respected across the league, but that only goes so far. I want my team to push the boot down on the throat of an opponent when they're down. Flames will not outskill the top teams in the league like Tampa Bay or Colorado, so they must find an edge in other areas. Sutter has shown he knows how to do that.
I agree the Oil do need a tough guy with character, preferably on defense.
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Post by FloridaAltFan on Aug 11, 2021 1:22:12 GMT -7
Chara still available...
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Post by neufab94 on Aug 11, 2021 13:18:06 GMT -7
As already mentioned "team toughness" is more than having a 7 minute nuclear deterrent assisting the water boy. Yamamoto and Archibald have shown that in spite of being the little guy, relentlessness can generate success just as easily as size. Obviously having both is nice. On paper the forward group appears to have improved on both fronts. I expect Foegele to bring a tenacious forecheck that could pair nicely with either Archibald or Kassian. Also, I believe Perlini will be an upgrade over Khaira and Hyman most certainly an improvement over Kahun. The forecheck should be better and the team should be winning more battles along the boards. The Oilers forward group should stack up okay vs anyone including Tampa Bay, from a size perspective anyway. Being defensively responsible and an aggressive back check will be the thing to watch.
As far as clearing guys from in front of the net goes, I suspect Keith and Nurse will be the key guys for this roll. I'm really not sure what to expect from Ceci in this regard. Bouchard has the physical size to be capable of clearing guys out so I will be watching to see how he develops defensively, and who his defensive partner will be. In many cases when Edmonton got hemmed in their own zone it was often due to an inability to effectively move the puck out. Larsson was hard nosed but not a great puck mover at times. Bear was a better puck mover but would sometimes get knocked off the puck too easy. Each guy was guilty at times and my intent is not to disrespect the guys who are gone. However, as a whole, the defensive group looks to be better equipped to move the puck, which should make the team harder to play against and somewhat mitigate the need for 6'6" fist throwers that build speed as quickly as a freight train.
I don't see this team dropping the gloves as often as when Laraque was on the team. Hopefully Kassian and maybe Foegele bring some of that. The best fights seem to be in the middle weight category with guys who aren't necessarily fighters but rather just angry at each other. One of the things I liked about Sam Gagner was his willingness to drop the gloves. Maybe Archibald has that in him also. So, even though the Oilers don't have a designated heavyweight, they have the pieces in place to be a "tough team" but the attitude in which they play with will be the final determinant.
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