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Post by drtaf on Oct 22, 2023 14:42:08 GMT -7
You're not winning anything when you are getting out scored 2-1 when he is on ice which is what has been happening ever since he came back from his wrist injury. True, he needs to play better. Only way to play better is get out there and play. Woody made his point last game now Kane has to prove him wrong. The fight was a good start, there's still some GAF in there somewhere?, Now he just has to channel it on net!
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Post by neufab94 on Oct 24, 2023 15:12:48 GMT -7
True, he needs to play better. Only way to play better is get out there and play. Woody made his point last game now Kane has to prove him wrong. The fight was a good start, there's still some GAF in there somewhere?, Now he just has to channel it on net! I would put Brown in same boat as Kane. We need these guys to get going and look like they belong in the top 6. So far the team as a whole has looked disjointed and lacking any chemistry.
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Post by drtaf on Oct 24, 2023 15:53:45 GMT -7
The fight was a good start, there's still some GAF in there somewhere?, Now he just has to channel it on net! I would put Brown in same boat as Kane. We need these guys to get going and look like they belong in the top 6. So far the team as a whole has looked disjointed and lacking any chemistry. Brown is the one that annoys me most. I get KH had to offer him an incentive-loaded deal to fit under the cap, but there should have been some "incentive" to actually GAF? Setting the bar so incredibly low at just "make it to 10 games and here's an extra $3.5M" was idiotic?, there has to be some "performance-based clause in there somewhere otherwise the guy knows he gets paid regardless? I just dont think that anyone else was offering him anywhere near this and that his agent skillfully used the "McD" friendship to leverage this sweetheart deal. Maybe McD had a direct influence on KH's decision? who knows? its just an incredibly poorly structured contract that looks like it will totally handcuff us for next year to do anything, regardless how this season turns out?
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Post by yuke on Oct 24, 2023 16:44:16 GMT -7
I would put Brown in same boat as Kane. We need these guys to get going and look like they belong in the top 6. So far the team as a whole has looked disjointed and lacking any chemistry. Brown is the one that annoys me most. I get KH had to offer him an incentive-loaded deal to fit under the cap, but there should have been some "incentive" to actually GAF? Setting the bar so incredibly low at just "make it to 10 games and here's an extra $3.5M" was idiotic?, there has to be some "performance-based clause in there somewhere otherwise the guy knows he gets paid regardless? I just dont think that anyone else was offering him anywhere near this and that his agent skillfully used the "McD" friendship to leverage this sweetheart deal. Maybe McD had a direct influence on KH's decision? who knows? its just an incredibly poorly structured contract that looks like it will totally handcuff us for next year to do anything, regardless how this season turns out? Since it has been stated, All in or Bust, this was basically one of only a few that could have been made. Brown may not have gotten as much from anyone else but not many would work today for a paycheck in a year. Call it interest. I think the guy will turn it around, new surroundings and missed a year. He just needs to figure it out quickly
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Post by mrtea on Oct 24, 2023 16:59:54 GMT -7
Brown is the one that annoys me most. I get KH had to offer him an incentive-loaded deal to fit under the cap, but there should have been some "incentive" to actually GAF? Setting the bar so incredibly low at just "make it to 10 games and here's an extra $3.5M" was idiotic?, there has to be some "performance-based clause in there somewhere otherwise the guy knows he gets paid regardless? I just dont think that anyone else was offering him anywhere near this and that his agent skillfully used the "McD" friendship to leverage this sweetheart deal. Maybe McD had a direct influence on KH's decision? who knows? its just an incredibly poorly structured contract that looks like it will totally handcuff us for next year to do anything, regardless how this season turns out? Since it has been stated, All in or Bust, this was basically one of only a few that could have been made. Brown may not have gotten as much from anyone else but not many would work today for a paycheck in a year. Call it interest. I think the guy will turn it around, new surroundings and missed a year. He just needs to figure it out quickly Woody defended him recently when asked about his expectations of Brown. Woody said that it's not uncommon for someone coming off of his type of injury to have a slow start and that Woody felt he was digging and working and that he would probably be rewarded soon.
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Post by neufab94 on Oct 24, 2023 18:16:55 GMT -7
Since it has been stated, All in or Bust, this was basically one of only a few that could have been made. Brown may not have gotten as much from anyone else but not many would work today for a paycheck in a year. Call it interest. I think the guy will turn it around, new surroundings and missed a year. He just needs to figure it out quickly Woody defended him recently when asked about his expectations of Brown. Woody said that it's not uncommon for someone coming off of his type of injury to have a slow start and that Woody felt he was digging and working and that he would probably be rewarded soon. That also is the case with Kane. So, there are 2 guys in the top 6 that need to get their game back after a significant injury. The team is using the first part of the regular season to figure out what should have happened in pre-season. I would like to see some continuity in the lines with the expectation to see some chemistry develop instead of the disjointed play thus far.
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Post by drtaf on Oct 24, 2023 18:19:44 GMT -7
Since it has been stated, All in or Bust, this was basically one of only a few that could have been made. Brown may not have gotten as much from anyone else but not many would work today for a paycheck in a year. Call it interest. I think the guy will turn it around, new surroundings and missed a year. He just needs to figure it out quickly Woody defended him recently when asked about his expectations of Brown. Woody said that it's not uncommon for someone coming off of his type of injury to have a slow start and that Woody felt he was digging and working and that he would probably be rewarded soon. I dont mind that KH went after or even signed him and I'm also hopeful he's still in his "feeling out" stage, I just dont get that the bonus was attached to such a stupid milestone? It's almost begging the guy to play really conservatively so he doesn't get injured in order to cash in? I'm hoping this is the real reason and that in game 11, we see the real Connor Brown!
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Post by mrtea on Oct 25, 2023 8:10:48 GMT -7
Woody defended him recently when asked about his expectations of Brown. Woody said that it's not uncommon for someone coming off of his type of injury to have a slow start and that Woody felt he was digging and working and that he would probably be rewarded soon. That also is the case with Kane. So, there are 2 guys in the top 6 that need to get their game back after a significant injury. The team is using the first part of the regular season to figure out what should have happened in pre-season. I would like to see some continuity in the lines with the expectation to see some chemistry develop instead of the disjointed play thus far. I found Kane did respond. He had a Gordie Howe hat trick, A goal, an assist and a fight. Now for him to keep up that style of play, it's when he's at his best. I liked 2 out of the 3 periods, but man that 3rd period was a killer. Bobbled pucks were a problem the whole game for the Oilers, but they caused at least 3 of the goals in the 3rd.
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Post by mrtea on Oct 25, 2023 8:19:16 GMT -7
Woody defended him recently when asked about his expectations of Brown. Woody said that it's not uncommon for someone coming off of his type of injury to have a slow start and that Woody felt he was digging and working and that he would probably be rewarded soon. I dont mind that KH went after or even signed him and I'm also hopeful he's still in his "feeling out" stage, I just dont get that the bonus was attached to such a stupid milestone? It's almost begging the guy to play really conservatively so he doesn't get injured in order to cash in? I'm hoping this is the real reason and that in game 11, we see the real Connor Brown! I find that Brown's game is trending in the right direction, he's been sniffing around the net. He keeps digging as advertised, I think he will eventually be rewarded. How much is the trick.
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Post by Bronco73 on Oct 25, 2023 14:57:52 GMT -7
On Brown, we have to remember he missed almost the entire 2022 season due to injury and surgery on the ACL. It will take some time before he gets into top game shape.
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Post by drtaf on Oct 25, 2023 18:27:52 GMT -7
On Brown, we have to remember he missed almost the entire 2022 season due to injury and surgery on the ACL. It will take some time before he gets into top game shape. So why did we give him $4M? Because he's a buddy of McD and KH did this to appease him? I might be on board with that except somehow I dont think McD will remember the gesture if this team starts missing playoffs before his contract is up?? Even if KH made it something easily achievable like 15G or 40pts, that is not a big ask for a $4M player? I do believe he'll pick it up, and if we ever do make playoffs, i think he'll come in real handy, but right now he's part of the problem and sad part is, he will be even after he's gone?
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Post by yuke on Oct 25, 2023 20:58:43 GMT -7
On Brown, we have to remember he missed almost the entire 2022 season due to injury and surgery on the ACL. It will take some time before he gets into top game shape. So why did we give him $4M? Because he's a buddy of McD and KH did this to appease him? I might be on board with that except somehow I dont think McD will remember the gesture if this team starts missing playoffs before his contract is up?? Even if KH made it something easily achievable like 15G or 40pts, that is not a big ask for a $4M player? I do believe he'll pick it up, and if we ever do make playoffs, i think he'll come in real handy, but right now he's part of the problem and sad part is, he will be even after he's gone? 2nd time I replied on this topic, going to try a different approach. Would you work for regular pay if your employer said they will pay you next year when they have the money to do so? Only way I would do it was for some type of bonus.
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Post by drtaf on Oct 25, 2023 22:19:26 GMT -7
So why did we give him $4M? Because he's a buddy of McD and KH did this to appease him? I might be on board with that except somehow I dont think McD will remember the gesture if this team starts missing playoffs before his contract is up?? Even if KH made it something easily achievable like 15G or 40pts, that is not a big ask for a $4M player? I do believe he'll pick it up, and if we ever do make playoffs, i think he'll come in real handy, but right now he's part of the problem and sad part is, he will be even after he's gone? 2nd time I replied on this topic, going to try a different approach. Would you work for regular pay if your employer said they will pay you next year when they have the money to do so? Only way I would do it was for some type of bonus. I certainly dont blame Brown or his agent for structuring it like this, I just dont see the logic in why Kenny agreed to it? Let's say Brown starts to really turn it around now and ends up with 25+goals and 50+pts? What do you expect he'll be asking for next year? North of $5M I imagine and how are we supposed to re-sign him given we will have zero cap space next year (yet again)? So he walks and finds a team that will pay him $5M and we're still left holding the $3.5M cap anchor?? I think i understand where your premise is coming from, but its based on Brown being worth $4M+ on Sept 1 and IMO he wasn't, he should have got a "show me" contract as I dont think anyone else was going to risk $4M+ on him? Instead, KH agreed to whats tantamount to a "layaway plan". Problem when folks buy on the "never-never" or max out their credit card, is that they dont realise its still real money and sooner or later the debt catches up to you, and whether that shiny new purchase is now just a pile of junk, doesn't matter, you still have to pay (or in this case it's likely going to be KH's successor who ends up paying)!
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Post by yuke on Oct 26, 2023 5:45:35 GMT -7
2nd time I replied on this topic, going to try a different approach. Would you work for regular pay if your employer said they will pay you next year when they have the money to do so? Only way I would do it was for some type of bonus. I certainly dont blame Brown or his agent for structuring it like this, I just dont see the logic in why Kenny agreed to it? Let's say Brown starts to really turn it around now and ends up with 25+goals and 50+pts? What do you expect he'll be asking for next year? North of $5M I imagine and how are we supposed to re-sign him given we will have zero cap space next year (yet again)? So he walks and finds a team that will pay him $5M and we're still left holding the $3.5M cap anchor?? I think i understand where your premise is coming from, but its based on Brown being worth $4M+ on Sept 1 and IMO he wasn't, he should have got a "show me" contract as I dont think anyone else was going to risk $4M+ on him? Instead, KH agreed to whats tantamount to a "layaway plan". Problem when folks buy on the "never-never" or max out their credit card, is that they dont realise its still real money and sooner or later the debt catches up to you, and whether that shiny unew purchase is now just a pile of junk, doesn't matter, you still have to pay (or in this case it's likely going to be KH's successor who ends up paying)! Cup or Bust - whats worse, paying a guy too much for a cup run or giving up your 1st round pick for 1 year cup run?
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Post by mrtea on Oct 26, 2023 8:09:32 GMT -7
2nd time I replied on this topic, going to try a different approach. Would you work for regular pay if your employer said they will pay you next year when they have the money to do so? Only way I would do it was for some type of bonus. I certainly dont blame Brown or his agent for structuring it like this, I just dont see the logic in why Kenny agreed to it? Let's say Brown starts to really turn it around now and ends up with 25+goals and 50+pts? What do you expect he'll be asking for next year? North of $5M I imagine and how are we supposed to re-sign him given we will have zero cap space next year (yet again)? So he walks and finds a team that will pay him $5M and we're still left holding the $3.5M cap anchor?? I think i understand where your premise is coming from, but its based on Brown being worth $4M+ on Sept 1 and IMO he wasn't, he should have got a "show me" contract as I dont think anyone else was going to risk $4M+ on him? Instead, KH agreed to whats tantamount to a "layaway plan". Problem when folks buy on the "never-never" or max out their credit card, is that they dont realise its still real money and sooner or later the debt catches up to you, and whether that shiny new purchase is now just a pile of junk, doesn't matter, you still have to pay (or in this case it's likely going to be KH's successor who ends up paying)! Doc, I respect your opinions and more times than not, I agree with you. One area I do not agree with you is your dislike of Holland and when problems with the team arise you see Holland as the reason behind them. It's understandable, but it's not accurate. This slump with the team has nothing to do with Brown or Holland. The team Holland has put together is good enough that they should be doing much better than they actually are. The team on the ice is a play off team, whether or not they are cup favorites is looking very doubtful at the moment. To me it's that the whole team is disassociated with each other and not in synch. It is appearing to me more of a coaching problem as the only explanation as to why the whole team is being affected the way it is. I'm not sure why it may have started, but it seems that the coach is losing the room. Maybe the new systems started some unhappiness like pointing fingers at the D for not being good enough. Maybe Woody does not command respect the same way a coach like Tochett does. I'm not sure, but Kane for example showed a little problem with how he was being handled. Woody's response was to say that was a good thing. Do they see him as too soft? Should he have been more aggressive with Kane. Yes Kane responded, but was it out of respect or would Kane have anyway? Does the team look at Woody and not respect him as much as they should because he is so soft spoken, never played in the NHL and not a specimen of obvious fitness? Maybe I'm off base also, but the team sure seems off kilter and for it to be through the whole team leads me to believe that coaching is at least part of the problem. The big question is if Woody changes tactics and actually gets a lot tougher on them will they respond or tune him out more? I'm not sure, but at this point it looks like he has to be a lot tougher with them. If Woody is asking them to change, maybe it's only fair that he is willing to change his style as well?
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Post by drtaf on Oct 26, 2023 15:13:55 GMT -7
I certainly dont blame Brown or his agent for structuring it like this, I just dont see the logic in why Kenny agreed to it? Let's say Brown starts to really turn it around now and ends up with 25+goals and 50+pts? What do you expect he'll be asking for next year? North of $5M I imagine and how are we supposed to re-sign him given we will have zero cap space next year (yet again)? So he walks and finds a team that will pay him $5M and we're still left holding the $3.5M cap anchor?? I think i understand where your premise is coming from, but its based on Brown being worth $4M+ on Sept 1 and IMO he wasn't, he should have got a "show me" contract as I dont think anyone else was going to risk $4M+ on him? Instead, KH agreed to whats tantamount to a "layaway plan". Problem when folks buy on the "never-never" or max out their credit card, is that they dont realise its still real money and sooner or later the debt catches up to you, and whether that shiny unew purchase is now just a pile of junk, doesn't matter, you still have to pay (or in this case it's likely going to be KH's successor who ends up paying)! Cup or Bust - whats worse, paying a guy too much for a cup run or giving up your 1st round pick for 1 year cup run? Fair enough! That's exactly the conclusion I came to in the end, its a cup or bust move
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Post by drtaf on Oct 26, 2023 15:31:42 GMT -7
I certainly dont blame Brown or his agent for structuring it like this, I just dont see the logic in why Kenny agreed to it? Let's say Brown starts to really turn it around now and ends up with 25+goals and 50+pts? What do you expect he'll be asking for next year? North of $5M I imagine and how are we supposed to re-sign him given we will have zero cap space next year (yet again)? So he walks and finds a team that will pay him $5M and we're still left holding the $3.5M cap anchor?? I think i understand where your premise is coming from, but its based on Brown being worth $4M+ on Sept 1 and IMO he wasn't, he should have got a "show me" contract as I dont think anyone else was going to risk $4M+ on him? Instead, KH agreed to whats tantamount to a "layaway plan". Problem when folks buy on the "never-never" or max out their credit card, is that they dont realise its still real money and sooner or later the debt catches up to you, and whether that shiny new purchase is now just a pile of junk, doesn't matter, you still have to pay (or in this case it's likely going to be KH's successor who ends up paying)! Doc, I respect your opinions and more times than not, I agree with you. One area I do not agree with you is your dislike of Holland and when problems with the team arise you see Holland as the reason behind them. It's understandable, but it's not accurate. This slump with the team has nothing to do with Brown or Holland. The team Holland has put together is good enough that they should be doing much better than they actually are. The team on the ice is a play off team, whether or not they are cup favorites is looking very doubtful at the moment. To me it's that the whole team is disassociated with each other and not in synch. It is appearing to me more of a coaching problem as the only explanation as to why the whole team is being affected the way it is. I'm not sure why it may have started, but it seems that the coach is losing the room. Maybe the new systems started some unhappiness like pointing fingers at the D for not being good enough. Maybe Woody does not command respect the same way a coach like Tochett does. I'm not sure, but Kane for example showed a little problem with how he was being handled. Woody's response was to say that was a good thing. Do they see him as too soft? Should he have been more aggressive with Kane. Yes Kane responded, but was it out of respect or would Kane have anyway? Does the team look at Woody and not respect him as much as they should because he is so soft spoken, never played in the NHL and not a specimen of obvious fitness? Maybe I'm off base also, but the team sure seems off kilter and for it to be through the whole team leads me to believe that coaching is at least part of the problem. The big question is if Woody changes tactics and actually gets a lot tougher on them will they respond or tune him out more? I'm not sure, but at this point it looks like he has to be a lot tougher with them. If Woody is asking them to change, maybe it's only fair that he is willing to change his style as well? I have No problem with you disagreeing T, I've had lots of disagreements with folks on this board but always try to keep it respectable, unless disrespected, then I'm ok with no holds barred too I think our main disagreement is at the level to which we hold KH? I think he's good but not great, he seems to take one step forward, one step backward, the result, very little progress? You hold him in higher regard, maybe based on comparing him to the decades-long shiitshow that preceded him? In which case he's a superstar and has made substantial progress? I can and do see him in that light sometimes, but just as i get on the KH bandwagon, he does something to make me jump off? As for Woody, I think he's a great coach who thinks the game at the highest level and can see what the problem is but just hasn't found a way to fix it? I think that's because he doesn't have the tools (right players) to fix it, but maybe it's because he can't find the right buttons to push? He talks a lot about accountability but i see very little of that in ways of benching or sending to the minors? In fact, i see the opposite? I see youngsters vastly outperforming their vet counterparts but getting sent down or reduced ice-time? I do think this team will turn it around this year and make playoff with both KH and Woody still at the helm, but if the end result is still the same, then I'm kind of hoping for a change at both positions. If you want me to throw oil on the fire, I'd say if we are to change the coach, then the only one available now that could get this team to the late stages of playoffs is Q, but that's a whole other can of worms
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Post by happyhappy on Oct 26, 2023 21:10:00 GMT -7
Are we nearing...
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Post by drtaf on Oct 26, 2023 21:45:13 GMT -7
Are we nearing... Ask us after saturday night??
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Post by happyhappy on Oct 26, 2023 21:58:46 GMT -7
Are we nearing... Ask us after saturday night?? Why, what's happening Saturday night? Game is Sunday Doc. Fingers crossed, we start a winning streak. This is getting baaad.
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