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Post by SuperDave17 on Mar 1, 2020 11:50:32 GMT -7
I've been a fan of his since day one, even as I had to temper a bit my expectations of him over the years. And he's definitely clicking with Drai and Yam. Love that goal last night! The thread is an honest question about what to do with him after this year or the year after, with the expiry of his contract on the horizon. Do we resign him? Were there no cap restraints, absolutely! But even if the cap is going up, we have players like Nurse and Yam and Bear and AA (who I expect we're investing in as Connor's winger) to sign. Maybe getting Kris Russell and Neal (via trade) off the books provides enough relief? Or will Tyler Benson be ready to slot in on Drai's wing in a year or so? Trade Nuge in the off-season? Now keep in mind, I do like Nuge as a solid two-way player who can do a bit of everything. But I'm conflicted about competing considerations as well. Thoughts?
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Post by Dr. Telly-Belly on Mar 1, 2020 11:53:15 GMT -7
Not knowing first hand the numbers, I would say, it's worth trying to keep him.
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Post by Bronco73 on Mar 1, 2020 12:01:26 GMT -7
It will be interesting to see what he wants, until then it's tough to know whether or not we even can keep him. If he is going to be wanting a huge raise it's probable that we won't be able to afford to keep him
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Post by blackhawk216 on Mar 1, 2020 12:10:36 GMT -7
It will be interesting to see what he wants, until then it's tough to know whether or not we even can keep him. If he is going to be wanting a huge raise it's probable that we won't be able to afford to keep him I wonder though how many NHL clubs would be prepared (or able) to pay him more (or much more) than the 6m he is currently being paid. Without looking at comparatives, isn't 6m currently about right for RNH? Also a silly question I know, but how many millions does one need to be financially secure? To be honest I think Ryan has been overpaid for at least some of his years with the Oilers, maybe time for him to acknowledge that in taking a "home team" discount.
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Post by Bronco73 on Mar 1, 2020 12:21:26 GMT -7
www.hockey-reference.com/friv/current_nhl_salaries.cgiThere are literally a swackload of names on that list that I'd take RNH before them and are currently getting paid more than RNH is. I can easily see him negotiating for a raise. I don't think asking how much you need equates with how much you are worth. To me that's a non-sequitur. It'd be like telling Jeff Bezos that he has plenty of flow, so he doesn't need Amazon to make him any more money. RNH is literally better every single year, and in the past there has been lots of interest and inquiries to us on him. He's going to want a payday like anybody else. If he doesn't, then great but if he does then I surely wouldn't begrudge him for it because honestly I can easily see him both wanting and deserving a raise. The question is whether we can afford it or not, because there are other teams that can.
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Post by fogolin2 on Mar 1, 2020 12:43:38 GMT -7
www.hockey-reference.com/friv/current_nhl_salaries.cgiThere are literally a swackload of names on that list that I'd take RNH before them and are currently getting paid more than RNH is. I can easily see him negotiating for a raise. I don't think asking how much you need equates with how much you are worth. To me that's a non-sequitur. It'd be like telling Jeff Bezos that he has plenty of flow, so he doesn't need Amazon to make him any more money. RNH is literally better every single year, and in the past there has been lots of interest and inquiries to us on him. He's going to want a payday like anybody else. If he doesn't, then great but if he does then I surely wouldn't begrudge him for it because honestly I can easily see him both wanting and deserving a raise. The question is whether we can afford it or not, because there are other teams that can. I agree with Blackhawk in that Nuge has been paid a center his whole career and we've learned in the last couple of years that he's a very good complimentary winger with a player (or two) that is significantly better than him. I dispute your claim that he's 'better every single year'. He might be getting more points, but he's had his responsibilities reduced by the move to wing, and he's benefited greatly from the players around him. I think 6mil is pretty much exactly where a 20g 60-70p winger should be. If he wants much more, we can get another guy that would put up similar numbers being Drai's or McD's passenger, for the same or less Cap.
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Post by Marshall Bruce Mathers III on Mar 1, 2020 12:45:46 GMT -7
I think Nuge likes it here. Hopefully he doesn't ask for a raise.
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Post by Bronco73 on Mar 1, 2020 13:28:45 GMT -7
I find it confusing that some were arguing that Nurse was worth upwards of 7, even 8 million, but RNH is barely worth the 6 that he's getting now?
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Post by fogolin2 on Mar 1, 2020 13:43:29 GMT -7
I find it confusing that some were arguing that Nurse was worth upwards of 7, even 8 million, but RNH is barely worth the 6 that he's getting now? I didn't really see anyone arguing that here. The rumor was that Nurse opened negotiations at 8, but I don't recall anyone saying he should get near it. I thought that if he had another 40 point year, he'd be around 7. His role changed this year, and he got more and more difficult minutes. Whereas Nuge has got less responsibility and easier minutes over the last couple of years. 30-40p dmen get paid about the same as 60-70p wingers. With Drai being at the level he's at, IMO there's a lot of guys that could produce similarly riding shotgun while he drives.
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Post by blackhawk216 on Mar 1, 2020 13:57:28 GMT -7
I find it confusing that some were arguing that Nurse was worth upwards of 7, even 8 million, but RNH is barely worth the 6 that he's getting now? I wasn't one of those people, , but disregarding that aspect of the debate, I think it is fair to say that Ryan is a complimentary player, not a driver type player, that is not a criticism of him, he is what he is and I appreciate what he is which is as stated a good complimentary player that can be used alongside Connor or Leon to good effect. But in discussing any player's prospective salary and just like the GM has to do, all the factors have to be taken into account, such as what will the cap be when we get down to discussing RNH's next contract, how much will we need eventually to sign proven players coming up the ranks like Ethan Bear and Yammo etc. And sooner or later, we will need to sign probably a top class NHL proven goalie as as good as Mike Smith has been this season, he isn't going to last for ever and I don't know about others but whilst I have some confidence in Kosk, it isn't what I would describe as overflowing confidence. If we had a spare 10m within the cap then yes, Ryan, fill your boots, but we havn't. I guess the options are to trade Kris Russel for picks (4m there), I don't particularly want to trade Klef or Larsson, and I doubt there will be a queue for James Neal, and if we buy him out, we are looking at the best part of 2m for I think the next 5/6 years. The only reason RNH was paid 6m initially was to bring him in line with Taylor Hall and Eberle if we are honest. When you look at players like Pastrnak and Mackinnon, who are on similar salary (just a bit higher) clearly at some point Ryan was what I would describe as overpaid. As I stated, perhaps now is the time to repay some of that over pay back by maybe accepting a modest increase...……..if not, thank you Ryan for all you have done whilst with the Oilers, but at around 6m or more per year, I think we have other needs to fill, or other players that we can bring in as a replacement. Nothing against Ryan, but running an NHL team is a business and the books have to be balanced so to speak, and once you start overpaying......well just look at the Maple Leafs who I guess are doing OK, but are too much on the top heavy side of the equation...…..similar to us with Lucic, Sekera and to a certain extent Neal (although worth it to get rid of the Lucic contract).
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Post by Marshall Bruce Mathers III on Mar 1, 2020 14:13:04 GMT -7
I find it confusing that some were arguing that Nurse was worth upwards of 7, even 8 million, but RNH is barely worth the 6 that he's getting now? I think Nurse is overpaid at 5.6M lol.
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onebit
Oilers Roster
Posts: 291
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Post by onebit on Mar 1, 2020 14:28:49 GMT -7
I find it confusing that some were arguing that Nurse was worth upwards of 7, even 8 million, but RNH is barely worth the 6 that he's getting now? I think some are undervaluing Nuge in a big way. He's much more than just the points he gets. PP, PK, great 2-way player, high hockey IQ, honest effort every single game. I see him somewhere between where he is and where Drai is, around 7.25 on a 5 year deal. And yes, I definitely want him an Oiler; ideally, he plays his whole career here.
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Post by Dr. Telly-Belly on Mar 1, 2020 14:54:00 GMT -7
For those that can shed light on the numbers, how much room would we have for RNH? Would it be better business to trade him in the off season? He's obviously found his nitch playing on the wing with Leon but can we afford it? Who goes off the books and what other players will we have to pony up this off season?
I'm asking for a friend
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Post by SuperDave17 on Mar 1, 2020 15:01:57 GMT -7
www.capfriendly.com/teams/oilersEven with this, it's hard to play armchair GM. Russell will be off the books after next year. Maybe Seattle takes Neal? But we have some significant signings to look after, including Yam and AA and Bear. Do we need to at least consider the Nuge trade and go with Benson on an ELC to tide over?
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Post by drtaf on Mar 1, 2020 15:58:07 GMT -7
Said this in another Convo but both Nurse and Nuge will be hard to replace so you have to make sure you have a "replacement" who is as good and cheaper, or better and worth a bit more. If KH can find that person then nuge will bring assets back in return, but what he brings back is also an important part of the equation? I like Nuge and think he does quite a bit more than is given credit for, but as Hawk says it is a business and he's a valuable asset so if we can improve the oilers by getting more for selling him and manage to fill the hole he will leave behind then KH has to look at what he can get for him. Conversely, Nuge is a legit 1st line winger but can also sub as a very decent 2nd centre if any of our "big 2" go down and the picture gets murkier still when you see him often playing the role of centre even when he's officially pencilled in as winger? Above all, we shouldn't de-value him here just because he's 3rd in line behind McDrai. If Nuge gets traded to someone else, I have no doubt he will succeed. I just hope the assets we get back will be worth the loss. FWIW, If he'd take $6Mish per year on an extension personally i'd keep him
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Post by blackhawk216 on Mar 1, 2020 16:28:03 GMT -7
Said this in another Convo but both Nurse and Nuge will be hard to replace so you have to make sure you have a "replacement" who is as good and cheaper, or better and worth a bit more. If KH can find that person then nuge will bring assets back in return, but what he brings back is also an important part of the equation? I like Nuge and think he does quite a bit more than is given credit for, but as Hawk says it is a business and he's a valuable asset so if we can improve the oilers by getting more for selling him and manage to fill the hole he will leave behind then KH has to look at what he can get for him. Conversely, Nuge is a legit 1st line winger but can also sub as a very decent 2nd centre if any of our "big 2" go down and the picture gets murkier still when you see him often playing the role of centre even when he's officially pencilled in as winger? Above all, we shouldn't de-value him here just because he's 3rd in line behind McDrai. If Nuge gets traded to someone else, I have no doubt he will succeed. I just hope the assets we get back will be worth the loss. FWIW, If he'd take $6Mish per year on an extension personally i'd keep him I don't think we are undervaluing RNH (at 6m) but if he is going to ask considerably more, it is a different kettle of fish. Onebit mentions 7.25 for 5 years for RNH, Fogolin mentioned 7m for Nurse if he is producing 40 pts...………..if we traded them both (and I am not suggesting we should do so) but if it is going to cost us 14.25m for Nurse and RNH then things need to be seriously considered. a) what return would we get for both Nurse and RNH? b) how much would that cost us? c) would the team be improved, or at least be as good by such moves? If we know we are obligated to pay 14.25m for Nurse and RNH, I would think for an outlay of around 11m for replacements wouldn't hurt us that much and that would leave us an extra 3.25 towards signing Bear and Yammo. eg Jonathan Huberdeau (Florida) is being paid 5.9m for the next two/three years. He could be RNH's replacement and surely for the remaining 5.5m we could find a reasonable replacement for Nurse. If Nurse would sign for under or around 6m and RNH would sign for current salary of 6m or a smidgeon more, then that would make this thread redundant .
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Post by drtaf on Mar 1, 2020 18:36:42 GMT -7
All good points except not sure about comparison to Huberdeau? (unless you're thinking we could realistically swap Nuge for Huberdeau in a trade which i'm not sure FLA would do, why would they)? As pointed out, There are tons of "worse" contracts than Nuge and we all know the ones which are better (mostly because there aren't many Mackinnon/Scheifele-like contracts out there. I think most inc me would do a Nuge for Huberdeau swap, question is: what would be the "add" and would that "add" be the difference between a good and bad deal? If Kh can find this kind of deal he should go for it, but i have my doubts there are many of these "low risk" swaps/deals/bargains out there.
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Post by blackhawk216 on Mar 1, 2020 20:34:08 GMT -7
All good points except not sure about comparison to Huberdeau? (unless you're thinking we could realistically swap Nuge for Huberdeau in a trade which i'm not sure FLA would do, why would they)? As pointed out, There are tons of "worse" contracts than Nuge and we all know the ones which are better (mostly because there aren't many Mackinnon/Scheifele-like contracts out there. I think most inc me would do a Nuge for Huberdeau swap, question is: what would be the "add" and would that "add" be the difference between a good and bad deal? If Kh can find this kind of deal he should go for it, but i have my doubts there are many of these "low risk" swaps/deals/bargains out there. Exactly! Why would Florida swap a 5.9m player scoring at a higher rate then a 6m or more than 6m player if RNH is asking for more than 6m That is exactly my point. Why should we pay RNH as was suggested earlier in this thread 7.25m when players like Huberdeau and others are bigger producers for less money? It is all very well saying RNH is a versatile player, yes he is, but I don't want to pay 6m or more for a PK specialist is my point. I just selected Huberdeau at random as an example of a player earning less than RNH's current salary but producing at a higher level in terms of goals and points. Both Marchand and Pastrnak at Boston are on similar to what RNH is being paid, Mackinnon on not much more...……….RNH is being paid as far as I am concerned his value...…….why should we need to pay more when in due course we have other contracts to deal with? The more we pay to players like RNH and Nurse, the harder it will be to satisfy for both parties other upcoming contracts. This is nothing against RNH or Darnell, it is a business decision.
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Post by Bronco73 on Mar 1, 2020 21:18:17 GMT -7
All good points except not sure about comparison to Huberdeau? (unless you're thinking we could realistically swap Nuge for Huberdeau in a trade which i'm not sure FLA would do, why would they)? As pointed out, There are tons of "worse" contracts than Nuge and we all know the ones which are better (mostly because there aren't many Mackinnon/Scheifele-like contracts out there. I think most inc me would do a Nuge for Huberdeau swap, question is: what would be the "add" and would that "add" be the difference between a good and bad deal? If Kh can find this kind of deal he should go for it, but i have my doubts there are many of these "low risk" swaps/deals/bargains out there. Exactly! Why would Florida swap a 5.9m player scoring at a higher rate then a 6m or more than 6m player if RNH is asking for more than 6m That is exactly my point. Why should we pay RNH as was suggested earlier in this thread 7.25m when players like Huberdeau and others are bigger producers for less money? It is all very well saying RNH is a versatile player, yes he is, but I don't want to pay 6m or more for a PK specialist is my point. I just selected Huberdeau at random as an example of a player earning less than RNH's current salary but producing at a higher level in terms of goals and points. Both Marchand and Pastrnak at Boston are on similar to what RNH is being paid, Mackinnon on not much more...……….RNH is being paid as far as I am concerned his value...…….why should we need to pay more when in due course we have other contracts to deal with? The more we pay to players like RNH and Nurse, the harder it will be to satisfy for both parties other upcoming contracts. This is nothing against RNH or Darnell, it is a business decision. unfair argument IMO. Yup there are some guys that score more than him that make less. But there are a lot of them getting paid more than him that score less as well. Doing the opposite of your Huberdeau example, just browsing through the players earning more than him on the pay scale up to 7 million but score less we have Zucker, Gourde, Granlund, Stastny, Orlov, Ehlers, Oshie, Radulov, Saad, Gaudreau, Provorov, Monahan. All of them scoring less than RNH this year, All of them earning more. I don't think Fog would be willing to call them all "complimentary" players like he does with RNH. Facts are facts. RNH is more than a complimentary player. When you look at the numbers he's a very good value at 6 million. IF he were a UFA tomorrow I'd be willing to bet that his agent would easily be able to negotiate a contract worth more than his current one.
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Post by fogolin2 on Mar 1, 2020 21:37:11 GMT -7
Said this in another Convo but both Nurse and Nuge will be hard to replace so you have to make sure you have a "replacement" who is as good and cheaper, or better and worth a bit more. If KH can find that person then nuge will bring assets back in return, but what he brings back is also an important part of the equation? I like Nuge and think he does quite a bit more than is given credit for, but as Hawk says it is a business and he's a valuable asset so if we can improve the oilers by getting more for selling him and manage to fill the hole he will leave behind then KH has to look at what he can get for him. Conversely, Nuge is a legit 1st line winger but can also sub as a very decent 2nd centre if any of our "big 2" go down and the picture gets murkier still when you see him often playing the role of centre even when he's officially pencilled in as winger? Above all, we shouldn't de-value him here just because he's 3rd in line behind McDrai. If Nuge gets traded to someone else, I have no doubt he will succeed. I just hope the assets we get back will be worth the loss. FWIW, If he'd take $6Mish per year on an extension personally i'd keep him I don't think we are undervaluing RNH (at 6m) but if he is going to ask considerably more, it is a different kettle of fish. Onebit mentions 7.25 for 5 years for RNH, Fogolin mentioned 7m for Nurse if he is producing 40 pts...………..if we traded them both (and I am not suggesting we should do so) but if it is going to cost us 14.25m for Nurse and RNH then things need to be seriously considered. a) what return would we get for both Nurse and RNH? b) how much would that cost us? c) would the team be improved, or at least be as good by such moves? If we know we are obligated to pay 14.25m for Nurse and RNH, I would think for an outlay of around 11m for replacements wouldn't hurt us that much and that would leave us an extra 3.25 towards signing Bear and Yammo. eg Jonathan Huberdeau (Florida) is being paid 5.9m for the next two/three years. He could be RNH's replacement and surely for the remaining 5.5m we could find a reasonable replacement for Nurse. If Nurse would sign for under or around 6m and RNH would sign for current salary of 6m or a smidgeon more, then that would make this thread redundant . I think this is exactly what we'll see happen
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