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Post by drtaf on Mar 1, 2020 22:05:29 GMT -7
Exactly! Why would Florida swap a 5.9m player scoring at a higher rate then a 6m or more than 6m player if RNH is asking for more than 6m That is exactly my point. Why should we pay RNH as was suggested earlier in this thread 7.25m when players like Huberdeau and others are bigger producers for less money? It is all very well saying RNH is a versatile player, yes he is, but I don't want to pay 6m or more for a PK specialist is my point. I just selected Huberdeau at random as an example of a player earning less than RNH's current salary but producing at a higher level in terms of goals and points. Both Marchand and Pastrnak at Boston are on similar to what RNH is being paid, Mackinnon on not much more...……….RNH is being paid as far as I am concerned his value...…….why should we need to pay more when in due course we have other contracts to deal with? The more we pay to players like RNH and Nurse, the harder it will be to satisfy for both parties other upcoming contracts. This is nothing against RNH or Darnell, it is a business decision. unfair argument IMO. Yup there are some guys that score more than him that make less. But there are a lot of them getting paid more than him that score less as well. Doing the opposite of your Huberdeau example, just browsing through the players earning more than him on the pay scale up to 7 million but score less we have Zucker, Gourde, Granlund, Stastny, Orlov, Ehlers, Oshie, Radulov, Saad, Gaudreau, Provorov, Monahan. All of them scoring less than RNH this year, All of them earning more. I don't think Fog would be willing to call them all "complimentary" players like he does with RNH. Facts are facts. RNH is more than a complimentary player. When you look at the numbers he's a very good value at 6 million. IF he were a UFA tomorrow I'd be willing to bet that his agent would easily be able to negotiate a contract worth more than his current one. In all these examples and in the "underpaid" examples, a little context is needed. It's kinda funny because of all the players mentioned, Nuge's contract is probably the one that played out "as planned" in that he was overpaid in the first few years of his contract in order to buy a few years UFA and will now be a little underpaid in last couple of years of his contract, ergo his contract has been "ok" . Most GM's (inc MacT or Tambi at time?) "hope" for the Mackinnon/scheifele scenario but more often than not end up with Orlov scenario. Both Scheifele and Mackinnon were anything but franchise players when they signed their contracts but showed enough promise to risk the investment. I have to say Pastrnak was an anomoly and I have no idea why he signed for so little TBH, he should have got more. It seems majority would be happy with RNH at $6M and that's about where I'm at as well
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Post by fogolin2 on Mar 1, 2020 22:31:03 GMT -7
Exactly! Why would Florida swap a 5.9m player scoring at a higher rate then a 6m or more than 6m player if RNH is asking for more than 6m That is exactly my point. Why should we pay RNH as was suggested earlier in this thread 7.25m when players like Huberdeau and others are bigger producers for less money? It is all very well saying RNH is a versatile player, yes he is, but I don't want to pay 6m or more for a PK specialist is my point. I just selected Huberdeau at random as an example of a player earning less than RNH's current salary but producing at a higher level in terms of goals and points. Both Marchand and Pastrnak at Boston are on similar to what RNH is being paid, Mackinnon on not much more...……….RNH is being paid as far as I am concerned his value...…….why should we need to pay more when in due course we have other contracts to deal with? The more we pay to players like RNH and Nurse, the harder it will be to satisfy for both parties other upcoming contracts. This is nothing against RNH or Darnell, it is a business decision. unfair argument IMO. Yup there are some guys that score more than him that make less. But there are a lot of them getting paid more than him that score less as well. Doing the opposite of your Huberdeau example, just browsing through the players earning more than him on the pay scale up to 7 million but score less we have Zucker, Gourde, Granlund, Stastny, Orlov, Ehlers, Oshie, Radulov, Saad, Gaudreau, Provorov, Monahan. All of them scoring less than RNH this year, All of them earning more. I don't think Fog would be willing to call them all "complimentary" players like he does with RNH. Facts are facts. RNH is more than a complimentary player. When you look at the numbers he's a very good value at 6 million. IF he were a UFA tomorrow I'd be willing to bet that his agent would easily be able to negotiate a contract worth more than his current one. I am very willing to call all those guys "complimentary" players. Are you calling those guys drivers? Do they create anything for other players? Orlov has 36 goals in 511 NHL games. Radulov plays 1way hockey. Brandon Saad has been on the blocks for 2 years, no takers at his money. Jonny and Monny get ridden by Calgary fans for not driving production. When they disappeared for stretches this year, did their team's results change?...not much
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Post by Bronco73 on Mar 1, 2020 23:19:15 GMT -7
unfair argument IMO. Yup there are some guys that score more than him that make less. But there are a lot of them getting paid more than him that score less as well. Doing the opposite of your Huberdeau example, just browsing through the players earning more than him on the pay scale up to 7 million but score less we have Zucker, Gourde, Granlund, Stastny, Orlov, Ehlers, Oshie, Radulov, Saad, Gaudreau, Provorov, Monahan. All of them scoring less than RNH this year, All of them earning more. I don't think Fog would be willing to call them all "complimentary" players like he does with RNH. Facts are facts. RNH is more than a complimentary player. When you look at the numbers he's a very good value at 6 million. IF he were a UFA tomorrow I'd be willing to bet that his agent would easily be able to negotiate a contract worth more than his current one. I am very willing to call all those guys "complimentary" players. Are you calling those guys drivers? Do they create anything for other players? Orlov has 36 goals in 511 NHL games. Radulov plays 1way hockey. Brandon Saad has been on the blocks for 2 years, no takers at his money. Jonny and Monny get ridden by Calgary fans for not driving production. When they disappeared for stretches this year, did their team's results change?...not much That's pretty much my point Fog. Every one of these guys earns more than Nugent-Hopkins does, yet for bang for the buck, dedication, and work ethic I'd take RNH over most of them. Does it make RNH worth more? maybe and maybe not, a player is only worth what every team is willing to pay him. But, my bet is that if he were on the open market his agent would be able to negotiate a bigger contract than he has right now.
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Post by fogolin2 on Mar 1, 2020 23:54:16 GMT -7
I am very willing to call all those guys "complimentary" players. Are you calling those guys drivers? Do they create anything for other players? Orlov has 36 goals in 511 NHL games. Radulov plays 1way hockey. Brandon Saad has been on the blocks for 2 years, no takers at his money. Jonny and Monny get ridden by Calgary fans for not driving production. When they disappeared for stretches this year, did their team's results change?...not much That's pretty much my point Fog. Every one of these guys earns more than Nugent-Hopkins does, yet for bang for the buck, dedication, and work ethic I'd take RNH over most of them. Does it make RNH worth more? maybe and maybe not, a player is only worth what every team is willing to pay him. But, my bet is that if he were on the open market his agent would be able to negotiate a bigger contract than he has right now. My bet is that the league knows what Nuge is after playing against him for so many years. I guess we'll see
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onebit
Oilers Roster
Posts: 291
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Post by onebit on Mar 2, 2020 1:08:05 GMT -7
Worth noting, that for the past 3 years save for a short stint with CM, RNH has been saddled with LESS than stellar line mates but since being set up on the DRY line, he's producing better than a point per game.
Looking at McKinnon's linemates, I wonder how close they would be in points had Nuge been with Drai and Yammo from the start of the year (extrapolating from December only).
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Post by drtaf on Mar 2, 2020 2:44:02 GMT -7
In a cap world I think it boils down to if Nuge wants to re-sign here for $6-6.5M x 5 then KH could/should re-sign him. If Nuge/agent think they can get $7M+ on the open market and want to go that route then KH has to look at what he can get in a trade for him. The ball is mostly in Nuge's court and his decision will probably boil down to: Does he really like it here and does he think the Oilers are going somewhere? or does he think he can do bigger/better things elsewhere and make more money taboot? That choice might well come down to how well the oilers do this and next year? Whatever he decides in future, I wish him well, he's been a good Oiler.
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Post by blackhawk216 on Mar 2, 2020 11:32:13 GMT -7
Worth noting, that for the past 3 years save for a short stint with CM, RNH has been saddled with LESS than stellar line mates but since being set up on the DRY line, he's producing better than a point per game. Looking at McKinnon's linemates, I wonder how close they would be in points had Nuge been with Drai and Yammo from the start of the year (extrapolating from December only). There is two ways of looking at that scenario. The opposite one is that not long ago Drai was being described as a player that can only produce with Connor. We now know that not to be the case. You say RNH has been saddled with less than stellar line mates...……...but now that he is with Drai, starts to build up the points. I hope you get my point. (no pun intended) . Drai has proven he is worth 8.5 m (obviously more than that now) but if I am the GM and I am paying an experienced NHL player 6m (and likely to be asked for more in due course) I would expect results regardless of the previously discussed less than stellar linemates. In other words, I am not going to pay 7.25m or whatever the deal is for a player who requires someone to provide the action for him...……….that is a harsh way of describing RNH but at 6m we are OK, any more it needs some deep thought and a view of the big picture of cap restraints etc.
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Post by blackhawk216 on Mar 2, 2020 11:33:47 GMT -7
In a cap world I think it boils down to if Nuge wants to re-sign here for $6-6.5M x 5 then KH could/should re-sign him. If Nuge/agent think they can get $7M+ on the open market and want to go that route then KH has to look at what he can get in a trade for him. The ball is mostly in Nuge's court and his decision will probably boil down to: Does he really like it here and does he think the Oilers are going somewhere? or does he think he can do bigger/better things elsewhere and make more money taboot? That choice might well come down to how well the oilers do this and next year? Whatever he decides in future, I wish him well, he's been a good Oiler. Perfectly summed up the situation.
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Post by snowcheer on Mar 2, 2020 14:12:30 GMT -7
Worth noting, that for the past 3 years save for a short stint with CM, RNH has been saddled with LESS than stellar line mates but since being set up on the DRY line, he's producing better than a point per game. Looking at McKinnon's linemates, I wonder how close they would be in points had Nuge been with Drai and Yammo from the start of the year (extrapolating from December only). There is two ways of looking at that scenario. The opposite one is that not long ago Drai was being described as a player that can only produce with Connor. We now know that not to be the case. You say RNH has been saddled with less than stellar line mates...……...but now that he is with Drai, starts to build up the points. I hope you get my point. (no pun intended) . Drai has proven he is worth 8.5 m (obviously more than that now) but if I am the GM and I am paying an experienced NHL player 6m (and likely to be asked for more in due course) I would expect results regardless of the previously discussed less than stellar linemates. In other words, I am not going to pay 7.25m or whatever the deal is for a player who requires someone to provide the action for him...……….that is a harsh way of describing RNH but at 6m we are OK, any more it needs some deep thought and a view of the big picture of cap restraints etc. When Drai was put on his own line last year, with less than stellar side-kicks, he didn't produce either. Given how hard it is to find a good winger for McDavid, I think it is a good thing that we have a good winger for Drai (who can also play centre, take draws, etc.). Nuge is also able to play 5on5, PK, and PP.
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Post by blackhawk216 on Mar 2, 2020 15:10:30 GMT -7
There is two ways of looking at that scenario. The opposite one is that not long ago Drai was being described as a player that can only produce with Connor. We now know that not to be the case. You say RNH has been saddled with less than stellar line mates...……...but now that he is with Drai, starts to build up the points. I hope you get my point. (no pun intended) . Drai has proven he is worth 8.5 m (obviously more than that now) but if I am the GM and I am paying an experienced NHL player 6m (and likely to be asked for more in due course) I would expect results regardless of the previously discussed less than stellar linemates. In other words, I am not going to pay 7.25m or whatever the deal is for a player who requires someone to provide the action for him...……….that is a harsh way of describing RNH but at 6m we are OK, any more it needs some deep thought and a view of the big picture of cap restraints etc. When Drai was put on his own line last year, with less than stellar side-kicks, he didn't produce either. Given how hard it is to find a good winger for McDavid, I think it is a good thing that we have a good winger for Drai (who can also play centre, take draws, etc.). Nuge is also able to play 5on5, PK, and PP. That was last year, all I know is that Drai got 105 pts, 50 goals, and was +2. Don't care which line he was on for those points, I am not going to complain or criticize him. For further information just look at the points he got during Connor's recent absence. Drai is a driver, RNH not so much.
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Post by snowcheer on Mar 2, 2020 15:20:43 GMT -7
When Drai was put on his own line last year, with less than stellar side-kicks, he didn't produce either. Given how hard it is to find a good winger for McDavid, I think it is a good thing that we have a good winger for Drai (who can also play centre, take draws, etc.). Nuge is also able to play 5on5, PK, and PP. That was last year, all I know is that Drai got 105 pts, 50 goals, and was +2. Don't care which line he was on for those points, I am not going to complain or criticize him. For further information just look at the points he got during Connor's recent absence. Drai is a driver, RNH not so much. Just maybe they are important to each other? I'm not saying they should be paid the same, just that RNH works better with better players, just as Drai does.
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Post by Marshall Bruce Mathers III on Mar 2, 2020 15:26:54 GMT -7
That was last year, all I know is that Drai got 105 pts, 50 goals, and was +2. Don't care which line he was on for those points, I am not going to complain or criticize him. For further information just look at the points he got during Connor's recent absence. Drai is a driver, RNH not so much. Just maybe they are important to each other? I'm not saying they should be paid the same, just that RNH works better with better players, just as Drai does. Who were Nuge's primary wingers last season? So far it's his best career year.
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Post by blackhawk216 on Mar 2, 2020 15:26:58 GMT -7
That was last year, all I know is that Drai got 105 pts, 50 goals, and was +2. Don't care which line he was on for those points, I am not going to complain or criticize him. For further information just look at the points he got during Connor's recent absence. Drai is a driver, RNH not so much. Just maybe they are important to each other? I'm not saying they should be paid the same, just that RNH works better with better players, just as Drai does. Who doesn't?
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Post by blackhawk216 on Mar 2, 2020 15:48:34 GMT -7
That was last year, all I know is that Drai got 105 pts, 50 goals, and was +2. Don't care which line he was on for those points, I am not going to complain or criticize him. For further information just look at the points he got during Connor's recent absence. Drai is a driver, RNH not so much. Just maybe they are important to each other? I'm not saying they should be paid the same, just that RNH works better with better players, just as Drai does. Here are the stats of an impactful player such as Leon Draisaitl: When he has a point this season, the Oilers are: 34-14-5, when he does not have a point, the Oilers are: 0-9-3. Drai is a driver as previously stated, RNH is a very good complimentary player. Drai at 8.5m is underpaid, (which is good for the Oilers) and RNH at 6m pushing to 6.5m is just about right, any more and it is an overpay given the tight cap space that the Oilers are working with. Other teams may be prepared to pay Ryan 7 to 8m which is fine if they have the space, not sure the Oilers do or will have that cap space is my point.
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Post by mrtea on Mar 2, 2020 16:27:17 GMT -7
Just maybe they are important to each other? I'm not saying they should be paid the same, just that RNH works better with better players, just as Drai does. Here are the stats of an impactful player such as Leon Draisaitl: When he has a point this season, the Oilers are: 34-14-5, when he does not have a point, the Oilers are: 0-9-3. Drai is a driver as previously stated, RNH is a very good complimentary player. Drai at 8.5m is underpaid, (which is good for the Oilers) and RNH at 6m pushing to 6.5m is just about right, any more and it is an overpay given the tight cap space that the Oilers are working with. Other teams may be prepared to pay Ryan 7 to 8m which is fine if they have the space, not sure the Oilers do or will have that cap space is my point. Nuge has had critics from his own fan base for years. They have wanted him traded for years, some wanted him gone so bad they said for a bag of pucks a couple of years ago. Year after year Nuge keeps trying his best getting better and better and only this year is he getting any real respect from the fans. For years he has held down the second line with little to no help as far as skilled linemates and was forced to concentrate on defense because he had guys like Eberle who were not two way players. It's hard to play offense on a line when your the only linemate playing defense. Now we put a mature Nuge on a line with two offensively skilled and defensively aware linemates and look what we have. The critics finally shut up about trading him, but they still don't want to admit he is a good hockey player because he doesn't fit their mold of what they think a good hockey player is. I hope Nuge isn't greedy out to brerak the bank and I hope Holland's idea of what Nuge is worth is in the zone that allows Nuge to have a raise while at the same time allows Holland to fit his salary into our cap situation. Remember if we trade Nuge he will need to be replaced by someone who can do the job, that won't be cheap either.
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Post by neufab94 on Mar 2, 2020 16:47:02 GMT -7
I've been a fan of his since day one, even as I had to temper a bit my expectations of him over the years. And he's definitely clicking with Drai and Yam. Love that goal last night! The thread is an honest question about what to do with him after this year or the year after, with the expiry of his contract on the horizon. Do we resign him? Were there no cap restraints, absolutely! But even if the cap is going up, we have players like Nurse and Yam and Bear and AA (who I expect we're investing in as Connor's winger) to sign. Maybe getting Kris Russell and Neal (via trade) off the books provides enough relief? Or will Tyler Benson be ready to slot in on Drai's wing in a year or so? Trade Nuge in the off-season? Now keep in mind, I do like Nuge as a solid two-way player who can do a bit of everything. But I'm conflicted about competing considerations as well. Thoughts? RNH is a core piece of this team and I would like to see the Oilers make a commitment that would see him retire as an Oiler provided he is of the same mindset. He is only 26 so a max term deal that is weighted to be front heavy and reducing towards the end seems about right. Although we expect that younger players will step into the line up RNH has been a steady soldier through some ugly seasons and is in his prime now. He has a mature veteran presence that I think is another intangible asset to young up and coming players. RNH is a critical component to the Oilers finally having 2 legitimate scoring lines where in recent history the 2nd line has become the more successful one. I see Kassian as being a key guy on McDavid's right side and with all due respect to the guys that have been on the left, we are still waiting for a #1 LW. With the Seattle expansion draft coming and the usual year end departures I do not see the Oilers as having a surplus of players. Furthermore, for far too many years, the Oilers lacked good veteran players and relied on rookies to save the team. Alternately, this became a major factor in Detroit making playoffs for 25 consecutive years where young players step seamlessly into the line-up as they were sheltered under a good veteran core. I would be surprised if Holland diverts heavily from what made Detroit a regular playoff team for so many years.
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Post by happyhappy on Mar 3, 2020 17:57:36 GMT -7
I hope RNH retires an Oiler. #Nugelove
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Post by blackhawk216 on Mar 4, 2020 9:07:55 GMT -7
Worth noting, that for the past 3 years save for a short stint with CM, RNH has been saddled with LESS than stellar line mates but since being set up on the DRY line, he's producing better than a point per game. Looking at McKinnon's linemates, I wonder how close they would be in points had Nuge been with Drai and Yammo from the start of the year (extrapolating from December only). There is two ways of looking at that scenario. The opposite one is that not long ago Drai was being described as a player that can only produce with Connor. We now know that not to be the case. You say RNH has been saddled with less than stellar line mates...……...but now that he is with Drai, starts to build up the points. I hope you get my point. (no pun intended) . Drai has proven he is worth 8.5 m (obviously more than that now) but if I am the GM and I am paying an experienced NHL player 6m (and likely to be asked for more in due course) I would expect results regardless of the previously discussed less than stellar linemates. In other words, I am not going to pay 7.25m or whatever the deal is for a player who requires someone to provide the action for him...……….that is a harsh way of describing RNH but at 6m we are OK, any more it needs some deep thought and a view of the big picture of cap restraints etc. Maybe we could stretch it to 7m . Not sure how, but Nuge seems to be finding ways to get the puck past the goalies when it really matters .
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Post by pillotte on Mar 4, 2020 9:44:10 GMT -7
There is two ways of looking at that scenario. The opposite one is that not long ago Drai was being described as a player that can only produce with Connor. We now know that not to be the case. You say RNH has been saddled with less than stellar line mates...……...but now that he is with Drai, starts to build up the points. I hope you get my point. (no pun intended) . Drai has proven he is worth 8.5 m (obviously more than that now) but if I am the GM and I am paying an experienced NHL player 6m (and likely to be asked for more in due course) I would expect results regardless of the previously discussed less than stellar linemates. In other words, I am not going to pay 7.25m or whatever the deal is for a player who requires someone to provide the action for him...……….that is a harsh way of describing RNH but at 6m we are OK, any more it needs some deep thought and a view of the big picture of cap restraints etc. Maybe we could stretch it to 7m . Not sure how, but Nuge seems to be finding ways to get the puck past the goalies when it really matters . IMO It's because he's playing with Drai. The other teams are so worried or aware of Drai they're giving Nuge more space which allows him to "tee" his shot up which this year has been deadly usually high top corner and it has been really accurate.
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Post by fogolin2 on Mar 4, 2020 10:09:07 GMT -7
Here are the stats of an impactful player such as Leon Draisaitl: When he has a point this season, the Oilers are: 34-14-5, when he does not have a point, the Oilers are: 0-9-3. Drai is a driver as previously stated, RNH is a very good complimentary player. Drai at 8.5m is underpaid, (which is good for the Oilers) and RNH at 6m pushing to 6.5m is just about right, any more and it is an overpay given the tight cap space that the Oilers are working with. Other teams may be prepared to pay Ryan 7 to 8m which is fine if they have the space, not sure the Oilers do or will have that cap space is my point. Nuge has had critics from his own fan base for years. They have wanted him traded for years, some wanted him gone so bad they said for a bag of pucks a couple of years ago. Year after year Nuge keeps trying his best getting better and better and only this year is he getting any real respect from the fans. For years he has held down the second line with little to no help as far as skilled linemates and was forced to concentrate on defense because he had guys like Eberle who were not two way players. It's hard to play offense on a line when your the only linemate playing defense. Now we put a mature Nuge on a line with two offensively skilled and defensively aware linemates and look what we have. The critics finally shut up about trading him, but they still don't want to admit he is a good hockey player because he doesn't fit their mold of what they think a good hockey player is. I hope Nuge isn't greedy out to brerak the bank and I hope Holland's idea of what Nuge is worth is in the zone that allows Nuge to have a raise while at the same time allows Holland to fit his salary into our cap situation. Remember if we trade Nuge he will need to be replaced by someone who can do the job, that won't be cheap either. I don't recall the 'bag of pucks' era, but I can't help notice that you say that Nuge didn't play with skilled linemates and refer to Eberle (consistent 25g scorer) as a liability. So, here's my question...If Nuge had put up back to back hundred point seasons, and Eberle had put up career numbers playing on Nuge's wing in those years, what would you be offering Eberle as a raise from the 6mil he was making? In reality the Islanders offered Eberle a paycut and he took it. Wingers don't get paid the same as centers. I think Nuge is better than Ebs, and Ebs got a NTC. Nuge at 6mil with no NTC makes a lot of sense to me.
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